Refusing to refund VAT. Is this allowed?

Okell

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ultimately

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34

(1) The trader must reimburse all payments, other than payments for delivery, received from the consumer, subject to paragraph (10)

So if the trader was paid the VAT they need to refund it, if the VAT was paid to the courier upon import (before/on/after delivery) then obviously it's a separate matter from the trader's obligations.

Thats UK legislation, the T&Cs of the vendors website states California Law applies... UK government doesn't set Californian law so you won't find it on legislation.gov.uk

And as I said above it also says:

However, you will benefit from any mandatory provisions of the law of your local jurisdiction, and nothing in these Terms affects your rights as a consumer to rely on such mandatory provisions of local law. You or we may bring a legal action relating to these Terms or our relationship in either the state or federal courts located in Los Angeles, California or in the courts located in your country of residence.

So they are affording your UK consumer rights under the contract. 

19. GOVERNING LAW AND VENUE

Any dispute, claim, or controversy between you and Zwift arising from or related to these Terms, the Zwift products, or your use of the Platform will be governed by and construed and enforced in accordance with the laws of California, except to the extent preempted by U.S. federal law, without regard to conflict of law rules or principles (whether of California or any other jurisdiction) that would cause the application of the laws of any other jurisdiction. Any dispute, claim, or controversy between the parties that is not subject to arbitration or cannot be heard in small claims court will be exclusively resolved in the state or federal courts of California and the United States, respectively, sitting in Los Angeles, California. You and Zwift waive any objection to venue in any such courts.

https://support.zwift.com/terms-of-service-HJt7VBYyH

Above is the terms of service I see on their site, cannot see where you copied that text from and Google has no trace of it on their site either

Assuming it is from some unindexed page, is the CCR "mandatory" where the seller is not UK based? 


As an aside, I have to say all the normal consumer champion type websites could seriously do with some updating and consideration of international purchases which are becoming ever more common. Not a single one of CAB, Which? etc that I saw say anything about if the rules are the same or different if the merchant is outside the UK. At best they warn that a .uk domain name isnt a guarantee that the company is UK based but then dont say the consequences of it not being UK based. 

You raise an interesting point.  

The link provided by the_lunatic works and says what he or she says it says.  ie for users in Europe local law is applicable and can be enforced through local courts.  The page is headed Terms of Service for Users in Europe.

However, Like you I can't find* where that page is situated on the Zwift website.  Are you suggesting that that means it is inapplicable here?  (I have no idea whether that view is right or wrong by the way).

I agree with you that consumer website and lobby groups like Which? etc could do a lot more to make consumers aware of the possible problems of buying goods online from abroad.  eg VAT and import duty and difficulties with enforcing consumer protection laws.

In a similar vein I was looking for information on the main MSE website about the right to cancel a distance contract and how to exercise that right and there was nothing under the obvious headings.  After a search I found an article over 10 years old.  That information needs to be more prominent on the main MSE site as it's obvious from these pages that most people don't know about the right or how to exercise it.   [Edit:  talking rubbish - apologies] 
  

*What I mean by that is that if I go to what I assume is the main Zwift website I can find pages relating to UK and European customers but I can't see where that particular page is.  Is it intended to be hidden?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Use this link, select Europe

https://support.zwift.com/en_us/categories/legal-rkCaoNtJS

Okell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Use this link, select Europe

https://support.zwift.com/en_us/categories/legal-rkCaoNtJS

Thank you

You are right

DullGreyGuy

Okell said:
Are you suggesting that that means it is inapplicable here?  (I have no idea whether that view is right or wrong by the way).

No, a much more simple fact that if I selected "Terms" on the home page or the buy page when specifying I am un the UK I am presented with the ones I saw. I was unable to find any other terms but now that LiimH has provided the link (hadn't seen the link previously) it does state that it applies to UK sales. 

Its a bit of a poor form from them that when on the "UK" version of their site and specifying that you are in the UK that they link directly to the US/RoW terms and not the European inc UK version. 

Okell

DullGreyGuy said:

Okell said:
Are you suggesting that that means it is inapplicable here?  (I have no idea whether that view is right or wrong by the way).

... Its a bit of a poor form from them that when on the "UK" version of their site and specifying that you are in the UK that they link directly to the US/RoW terms and not the European inc UK version. 

I agree.

But it's a bit like the thread concerning Lidl's returns policy.  I and another poster have found two different versions of Lidl's returns policy in two entirely different places on their website, and one of them contains at least one obvious typo.

I can sort of understand how the relevant part of Zwift's T&Cs might not be where you would most expect it to be, but I don't understand how one website can contain two different versions of a particular policy.  Shouldn't all pages showing the policy link back to the one policy document?

username

A retailer that collects VAT is merely a conduit on behalf of HMRC, it is not something that they should be using to enrich themselves with, or deny the refund of when the client returns the item for a refund.

DullGreyGuy

Okell said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Okell said:
Are you suggesting that that means it is inapplicable here?  (I have no idea whether that view is right or wrong by the way).

... Its a bit of a poor form from them that when on the "UK" version of their site and specifying that you are in the UK that they link directly to the US/RoW terms and not the European inc UK version. 

I agree.

But it's a bit like the thread concerning Lidl's returns policy.  I and another poster have found two different versions of Lidl's returns policy in two entirely different places on their website, and one of them contains at least one obvious typo.

I can sort of understand how the relevant part of Zwift's T&Cs might not be where you would most expect it to be, but I don't understand how one website can contain two different versions of a particular policy.  Shouldn't all pages showing the policy link back to the one policy document?

They should be but CMS systems are highly flexible, training on these sorts of secondary systems is often minimal and people make mistakes. 

One of the first mess-ups I had to deal with in my working life was when a bunch of customer's who's surnames were all "De'Ath" had a ton of unauthorised orders turn up because our next group of trainee order line staff had accidentally all been practicing in the Live rather than non-Live environment and the trainer had an odd preference for using customer references with this name. 

Last week we had a load of people here saying they'd received a Hasting Direct email stating there had been an error in their renewal premium and a refund will be coming shortly followed by another email saying it was an error. Inevitably someone learning how to use mail merge or trying to do testing on a future mailshot that accidentally went into Live etc. Its easier spot as your call rates spike whereas incorrectly published T&Cs can sit there weeks or months before anyone spots it and then it comes down to if the agent says "they'll let someone know" or actually does tell the relevant person. 

Mintsource

An update for you all.

I provided a copy of their returns policy, where it doesn't mention anything about the VAT being non-refundable.

They assigned a "specialist" who went away and after 3 days I have had a response from someone who initially informed me the VAT isn't refundable and it's tough, now confirming I will receive the full refund.

Thank you for all your assistance. It's been appreciated. 

All the best.

Mintsource

username said:

A retailer that collects VAT is merely a conduit on behalf of HMRC, it is not something that they should be using to enrich themselves with, or deny the refund of when the client returns the item for a refund.

This was exactly my issue with it all. It's a little untoward.

Okell

Mintsource said:

An update for you all.

I provided a copy of their returns policy, where it doesn't mention anything about the VAT being non-refundable.

They assigned a "specialist" who went away and after 3 days I have had a response from someone who initially informed me the VAT isn't refundable and it's tough, now confirming I will receive the full refund.

Thank you for all your assistance. It's been appreciated. 

All the best.

Well done for persevering.

Always worthwhile when you are in the right