MSE News: More energy deals with NO standing charges finally on the cards

iangrim39

the only fair way to change the standing charge situation is to make the standing charge a % of the bill. This would penalise heavy energy users and help lower users , encouraging less energy use ( surely what we want in current times). Also of course, scrap VAT on domestic bills…. which is basically a Govt theft of more money . 

GingerTim

iangrim39 said:

the only fair way to change the standing charge situation is to make the standing charge a % of the bill. This would penalise heavy energy users and help lower users , encouraging less energy use ( surely what we want in current times). Also of course, scrap VAT on domestic bills…. which is basically a Govt theft of more money . 

Heavy energy users who include those who need to power medical equipment, pensioners, or people with general health issues that require them to keep warm. Why should they pay more through no fault of their own?

(I speak as a very low user).

soosoosmum

The Regulator Guy has had a much greater influence than Martin, sorry, being the only person allowed into the discussions and having his opinions taken seriously. He's worth following on change.org

In the meantime, much of what Martin does post has been interesting and useful.

born_again

iangrim39 said:

the only fair way to change the standing charge situation is to make the standing charge a % of the bill. This would penalise heavy energy users and help lower users , encouraging less energy use ( surely what we want in current times). Also of course, scrap VAT on domestic bills…. which is basically a Govt theft of more money . 

Or maybe better to scrap SC & leave VAT in place.
Low users get charged less, heavy users pay more.
Just that VAT would need to be ringfenced to cover the power infrastructure, unless we could rely on the government (which ever way they swing) are going to cover the costs🤷‍♀️🤣 . 

wrf12345

Not sure how the first 2KW was charged at a higher rate back in the eighties when there were no smart meters and no daily readings taken. I do recall meters where you put coins in which presumably had no standing charges but were at a higher rate, their place taken by prepay smart meters which outrageously do have a standing charge. The only fact that we can be sure of is the amount energy companies pay for electricity and the amount they sell it for (10p and 23p), the rest is clever accountancy, vested interests, useless regulation and MP's on near a 100k a year who are completely removed from reality. Moving the green charges out of the s/c and increasing VAT might be  a good idea, certainly fairer. Those on 24 hour electrical care are already receiving huge sums in benefits so will be fine.

QrizB

Not sure how the first 2KW was charged at a higher rate back in the eighties when there were no smart meters and no daily readings taken.

It was averaged over the billing period. So, for a 30-day month, your first 60kWh would be charged at the higher rate.

iangrim39 said:

the only fair way to change the standing charge situation is to make the standing charge a % of the bill. T

That's functionally equivalent to adding the standing charge onto the kWh price, and has all the same disadvantages that Ofgem discuss in their paper.

born_again said:

Or maybe better to scrap SC & leave VAT in place. Low users get charged less, heavy users pay more.

And so's that.

born_again

There is no win win situation.
Somewhere along the line we will have to pay for it either directly or indirectly, which given the inefficiencies of any government system will mean everyone will pay even more 🤷‍♀️🤣

Scot_39

wrf12345 said:

Not sure how the first 2KW was charged at a higher rate back in the eighties when there were no smart meters and no daily readings taken. I do recall meters where you put coins in which presumably had no standing charges but were at a higher rate, their place taken by prepay smart meters which outrageously do have a standing charge. The only fact that we can be sure of is the amount energy companies pay for electricity and the amount they sell it for (10p and 23p), the rest is clever accountancy, vested interests, useless regulation and MP's on near a 100k a year who are completely removed from reality. Moving the green charges out of the s/c and increasing VAT might be  a good idea, certainly fairer. Those on 24 hour electrical care are already receiving huge sums in benefits so will be fine.

The first 2KW isnt charged ax anything as doesnt exist, 2kW power wasnt charged as anything as that is a power - we pay for energy in kWh.

And in past bands were often published as annual totals and applied on longer bilking cycles - I was on 6m for years.

So not 2kWh per day,  sometimed split pro rata and adjusted commulatively if necessary - a bit like tax.

And please  learn that energy retailers do not only pay 10p for their electricity and by implication are somehow pocketing the other 13p in the 23p.

The summarry cap breakdown is available for all to read and released by Ofgem quarterly. 
As are many comprehensive full spreadsheets and reports at times tretching to 100s of pages  - for individual decisions -  driving it -  like the allocation of network costs between fixed and unit rates behind recent changes to electric SC.  

That 10p is I suspect your take on the wholesale cost.  But even that has govt interference in the form of CfD contracts imposed.

And out of that c23p total,  suplliers have to pay for and be compensated for external constraints- like continuing to supply without payment.

So they also pay network operators grid and dno levels to deliver it to our doors.  £370 in Jan 23 cap.

The pay green levies - again arguably should be taxation funded - costs for insulation schemes - is it still GBIS or Eco 4 these days ? And of course those they are forced to supply without receiving payment  in arreears / debt. Via the standard policy costs.

After a 19% increase in standard policy costs in Apr to £188 despite a 23% rise in wholesale costs since summer - that policy cost lump still over 10% of total cap.

c£551 ex vat of the total cap. 

AtJuly cap post crisis lows almost the same as wholesale costs  of £613 and if stripped out CfD £37 for overpayment cf gas generation to wind and solar providers - again govt not market set policy - a closer still £551 vs £576.

They were also taking £11 from dd / credit customers in Apr to subsidise prepayment metered customers costs - govt policy.

And an increased debt allowance of £28 to cover a fraction of bad debts - which continue to grow - in part due to no cut off protections via regulatory and voluntary codes and now far more difficult forced prepayment rules.

And no one on benefits receives huge amounts.

Basic UC lower rate for singles under 25 is c£3700 pa.
higher rate - 25+  is c£4700pa -  below  25% the full time min wage.
Couples about 50% more.
UC rent aid frequently frozen - for 4 consecutive yrs recently - so in reality frequently  does not cover private market rents - and is not generous as when updated is set at 30% - the 3rd decile - of local rents. 
Just been frozen again under Labour for next year - another unwelcome and given the founding principles of the party  unexpected attack on the porest in society by Reeves et al - despite continuing high inflation in private rental sector - 7% nationally latest data iirc this year.
Joseph Rowntree foundation estimated this year's rent freeze announced by Reeves et al a loss of ave £243 for those claiming uc private rent support  - a lot when your basic income is £3700/4700 pa.

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

wrf12345 said:

Not sure how the first 2KW was charged at a higher rate back in the eighties when there were no smart meters and no daily readings taken. I do recall meters where you put coins in which presumably had no standing charges but were at a higher rate, their place taken by prepay smart meters which outrageously do have a standing charge. The only fact that we can be sure of is the amount energy companies pay for electricity and the amount they sell it for (10p and 23p), the rest is clever accountancy, vested interests, useless regulation and MP's on near a 100k a year who are completely removed from reality. Moving the green charges out of the s/c and increasing VAT might be  a good idea, certainly fairer. Those on 24 hour electrical care are already receiving huge sums in benefits so will be fine.

…

And please  learn that energy retailers do not only pay 10p for their electricity and by implication are somehow pocketing the other 13p in the 23p.

The summarry cap breakdown is available for all to read and released by Ofgem quarterly. 

… {very very long detailed explanation}

Patience of a saint!

mels74

It was only a few years ago that I was with a no standing charges utility company for both gas and electric AND the unit rates were way lower than what they are now. In fact, I don't ever remember paying standing charges up until about 6 years ago (I did use to shop around alot and intentionally go for no standing charges, and could always find one). So whilst what Martin is putting forward may seem a good thing, it's still actually quite terrible! ...if you compare overall prices with a few years ago. How has the standing charge gone from zero pounds per year to over £330 per year?! And they think it's a good deal by removing this and increasing the unit rates ......NOT! 
Greed, greed, greed ...excuses, excuses, excuses ....thats all it ever is