Tyne Tunnel 2 - demonstrably unfair practices

Ergates

IvanOpinion said:

Due to business I went through that tunnel for the first time a few months back (late summer?). Apart from having half naked women  or shirtless hunks jumping up and down hitting drivers on both sides of the head with wet fish I really don't know what more they could do to make it obvious you have to pay.

They tried that, RSPCA put an end to it.

Scotchman101

mr_stripey said:

brianposter said:

I would suggest that a week would allow almost everybody with a practical problem in paying to find a way to do so. In the case of parking I would suggest that nobody who has obviously paid should expect to receive a penalty.

None of which is very difficult to achieve.

The current window is fine, as evidenced by 98% of tolls being collected in time. To put it another way, you can use the few minutes saved by having an automatic toll and not having to queue and pay at a toll booth and pay by phone when you next stop after the toll

ya this is a garbage opinion. 

You can calculate that the company probably make between £10-15M off the 2% of late payers. It is gouging and exploitation basically. 

eskbanker

Scotchman101 said:

You can calculate that the company probably make between £10-15M off the 2% of late payers. It is gouging and exploitation basically. 

....or you could just stick to reality?  £27M total annual turnover, and the company clarifying that revenue from late payers is declining as a result of all the publicity:

As a result of TT2 investing significantly in making it even easier to pay a toll and reducing non-compliance, the income from Unpaid Toll Charge Notices fell by almost 24% in the 2023/24 financial year. This investment included website developments, the introduction of Google Pay and Apple Pay and enhancing customer understanding through additional communications campaigns.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/record-traffic-levels-tyne-tunnels-29851897

Scotchman101

I just got dinged by this gouge on a journey back North after travelling through at 1130pm after a road crash diversion, and then forgetting to pay until Sunday evening when I gave the hire car back. 

Here are some thoughts: 

1) This is clearly a gouge, and exploitation, that punishes genuine first time travellers to the area.
2) The whole 'you didn't read the sign properly' is a nonsense is a feature of the legal system in E&W and it is much harder to use this basis in Scotland. I am surprised it is considered legal to rely on road signs on a busy road leading up to the tunnel. They seem to predicate it on the basis that you have entered a legally binding contract by simply passing a road sign that says 'charges ahead', without giving any option to divert nor to check the terms and conditions. Checking online it seems none of these cases have ever gone to court - everyone backs down and the company seems to be relying on this. 
3) When the say 'this is a private tunnel and private land' is also utter BS, when all the roads leading up to the entrance to the tunnel are built and paid for by the public. 
4) You can calculate that the TTL2 limited probably make about £10-15M per year from the 2% of people who are later payers, and this is mostly tourists or first time travellers that don't know the system. With no grace legal required to be offered for first time offenders, it is a venus fly trap dressed up as a public service. 
5) Late payers probably make up about 30-40% of the entire TTL2 revenue. 

For those people coming on here and defending the company, bear in mind that we don't actually know who owns TTL2 as the Company registration arrives to an offshore company registered in Guernsey. For all we know it is owned by Russian mafia. If any of the actual company beneficiaries would like to step forward and correct that speculation afore mentioned, then I would welcome your clarification. I don't think the profits are going anywhere near the NE of England that's for sure.   

The TTL2 operative I spoke to on the did a staunch job of defending the unfair practices until I pointed out that her meager phone operator salary wasn't going to pay for her children to go to private school, or go on three foreign holidays per year. When I asked how much of the £15M profits that were going to the owners she was seeing in her annual bonus, she went very quiet indeed and I think the point was made. . 

The only way to stop this obvious scam (and others like it) is by an new executive order from the Secretary of State for Transport. Anybody on this forum have friends in Whitehall?

FWIW my suggestion would be: 

1) Mandatory grace period of 1 week.
2) No penalty tariff for first time offenders.
3) Penalty tariff in case of non-payment capped at £15. 
4) Booth pay on-site option must be reinstated.  

Actually, I think if these charges actually went to court there must a be a good chance a judge would say the methodology payment collection (entering into a binding contract whilst travelling at speed without any signature nor chance to review the terms) would not be considered reasonable. Would be good if someone wealthy took them on in a class action. Anyone fancy having a go at a crowdfunded effort? 

cheers.  

Scotchman101

RefluentBeans said:

OP if you have missed the signs, then I think, politely, you need to get an eye exam. Or you rely too much on the SatNav and don’t look at the signs on the sides of the road. 

You could potentially call the toll operator and say you didn’t know but realistically, they haven’t got to let you off with no fine. But they might. 

naah. the company are gouging and they know it. 

I bet half of the people on here defending the company either work for them or are related to them in some way, 

Aylesbury_Duck

Scotchman101 said:

RefluentBeans said:

OP if you have missed the signs, then I think, politely, you need to get an eye exam. Or you rely too much on the SatNav and don’t look at the signs on the sides of the road. 

You could potentially call the toll operator and say you didn’t know but realistically, they haven’t got to let you off with no fine. But they might. 

naah. the company are gouging and they know it. 

I bet half of the people on here defending the company either work for them or are related to them in some way, 

Bingo!  It was only a matter of time.

You're wrong, of course.  They're all too busy working for Currys, DFS, John Lewis, Apple and all the other companies they've dared to suggest may hold reasonable ground in a consumer rights matter, to be working for or with the toll business.

Jenni_D

Are the "fines" that come through for the Tyne Tunnel actual Fines (Penalties) or are they Charges (Invoices)? Different legal bases apply depending on the answer - the former is a decriminalised matter, whereas the latter is contract law.

user1977

Scotchman101 said:

The whole 'you didn't read the sign properly' is a nonsense is a feature of the legal system in E&W and it is much harder to use this basis in Scotland.

How do you make that out? We no longer have tolls on public roads in Scotland, but we do have LEZ schemes which similarly assume you know the regulations before you drive into the zone.

sheramber

Scotchman101 said:

RefluentBeans said:

OP if you have missed the signs, then I think, politely, you need to get an eye exam. Or you rely too much on the SatNav and don’t look at the signs on the sides of the road. 

You could potentially call the toll operator and say you didn’t know but realistically, they haven’t got to let you off with no fine. But they might. 

naah. the company are gouging and they know it. 

I bet half of the people on here defending the company either work for them or are related to them in some way, 

Not when they don't share their profit with their employees, as you  inferred.

saajan_12

Scotchman101 said:

I just got dinged by this gouge on a journey back North after travelling through at 1130pm after a road crash diversion, and then forgetting to pay until Sunday evening when I gave the hire car back. 

Here are some thoughts: 

1) This is clearly a gouge, and exploitation, that punishes genuine first time travellers to the area.
2) The whole 'you didn't read the sign properly' is a nonsense is a feature of the legal system in E&W and it is much harder to use this basis in Scotland. I am surprised it is considered legal to rely on road signs on a busy road leading up to the tunnel. They seem to predicate it on the basis that you have entered a legally binding contract by simply passing a road sign that says 'charges ahead', without giving any option to divert nor to check the terms and conditions. Checking online it seems none of these cases have ever gone to court - everyone backs down and the company seems to be relying on this. 
3) When the say 'this is a private tunnel and private land' is also utter BS, when all the roads leading up to the entrance to the tunnel are built and paid for by the public. 
4) You can calculate that the TTL2 limited probably make about £10-15M per year from the 2% of people who are later payers, and this is mostly tourists or first time travellers that don't know the system. With no grace legal required to be offered for first time offenders, it is a venus fly trap dressed up as a public service. 
5) Late payers probably make up about 30-40% of the entire TTL2 revenue. 

For those people coming on here and defending the company, bear in mind that we don't actually know who owns TTL2 as the Company registration arrives to an offshore company registered in Guernsey. For all we know it is owned by Russian mafia. If any of the actual company beneficiaries would like to step forward and correct that speculation afore mentioned, then I would welcome your clarification. I don't think the profits are going anywhere near the NE of England that's for sure.   

The TTL2 operative I spoke to on the did a staunch job of defending the unfair practices until I pointed out that her meager phone operator salary wasn't going to pay for her children to go to private school, or go on three foreign holidays per year. When I asked how much of the £15M profits that were going to the owners she was seeing in her annual bonus, she went very quiet indeed and I think the point was made. . 

The only way to stop this obvious scam (and others like it) is by an new executive order from the Secretary of State for Transport. Anybody on this forum have friends in Whitehall?

FWIW my suggestion would be: 

1) Mandatory grace period of 1 week.
2) No penalty tariff for first time offenders.
3) Penalty tariff in case of non-payment capped at £15. 
4) Booth pay on-site option must be reinstated.  

Actually, I think if these charges actually went to court there must a be a good chance a judge would say the methodology payment collection (entering into a binding contract whilst travelling at speed without any signature nor chance to review the terms) would not be considered reasonable. Would be good if someone wealthy took them on in a class action. Anyone fancy having a go at a crowdfunded effort? 

cheers.  

All the stuff about signage is irrelevant if you saw it and simply forgot. If you're visiting a different juristriction, you can't expect to apply your home laws - it would be like an American bringing over their gun and complaining they didn't sign to say they couldn't carry it around so it shouldn't apply. 

Its not exactly practical to have 100% of people stop and sign contracts or even pay on the spot for the 2% of people who can't read a sign. The provisions needed to get such contracts signed or take payments before entering the road also cost money which would only raise the cost for everyone. 

3) of course private roads have to have an entrance from a public road, how else do people use them? My private driveway also has a public road leading to it, that doesn't mean random members of the public on that public road can just enter and use my land. I agree there has to be an adequate amount of signage with the ability to opt out by taking a different exit, which I presume there is. 

4) Total revenue numbers are meaningless if they correspond to a large number of users. Even taking your numbers as gospel, the £10-15M is only around £30-45 each, which it may well cost them to connect the human to the number plate, send the letter(s), track and match the payments received. Companies don't profit off revenue, they profit off (obviously) profit.