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Wondering if this is suspicious, re buyer?

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  • RHemmings
    RHemmings Posts: 4,894 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 30 September 2024 at 12:38PM
    @Land_Registry continues to be the most useful and helpful official representative I've ever seen on any forum anywhere. By some margin. 

    BTW: About people keeping their contact address on the register up-to-date, I've noticed that it's not uncommon for the title register of rented house to give the address of the rented house as the address of the landlords. Even though they aren't living there. 
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,142 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    RHemmings said:
    @Land_Registry continues to be the most useful and helpful official representative I've ever seen on any forum anywhere. By some margin. 

    BTW: About people keeping their contact address on the register up-to-date, I've noticed that it's not uncommon for the title register of rented house to give the address of the rented house as the address of the landlords. Even though they aren't living there. 
    That is  a very kind comment and much appreciated
    You are correct re the contact addresses used as often the application, submitted by the conveyancer, will specify that as being the address to be used. How far that's discussed with the client (new owner) or indeed to what extent the conveyancer is aware that they are going to let/lease the property too, we would not know
    Protecting yourself against identity and property fraud starts with you as an owner. Being aware of how such matters 'work' and how best to safeguard your identity and property are worth researching
    Conveyancers, lenders, HMLR and more all have processes and checks in place to help also and it's a combined effort that creates the 'best' protection as a result
    And forums such as MSE are extremely useful in alerting people to the possibilities of how to help themselves of course 
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Prompted by comments on my posts, I cannot find the information I read about the rogue tenants but I have found the following

    Extracts:….attempts to illegally gain ownership of a property stealing identity is impersonation fraud, which according to a UK Finance report, doubled in 2020. I. It usually occurs through one of two methods:An impersonation of the registered property owner; By using forged documents to transfer the property into their name. It can be committed by: Interfamily or associates; tenants or landlords; organised crime

    https://www.waldrons.co.uk/insights/what-is-property-fraud/

    Extracts: … we highlight the main types of fraud and what you can do to protect yourself from the different types of property fraud, including: Scammers who attempt to sell your property from under your nose, transfer your property into their own name using false documents. Fraudsters often target vacant properties and properties that are mortgage free … or which target you as you are about to complete the purchase or sale of a property, whereby fraudsters intercept funds or get you to unwittingly transfer funds into their bank accounts by pretending it’s your conveyancer’s account....But your property is more at risk if it is left empty ...it is rented out [= second to top of the full list]

    https://hoa.org.uk/advice/guides-for-homeowners/for-owners/protect-property-fraud/

    ..solicitors can be held liable for any losses caused by acting for a fraudulent party

    https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/property-and-registration-fraud

    Hope this is useful.

    BTW the practice of the owner registering their address as that of their tenant is really frustrating if it is the owner who is responsible for behaviour of the tenant.  Perhaps R.Hemmings could start a new thread on this one as it is not relevant to the OP's thread. 

  • user1977
    user1977 Posts: 17,743 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Seventh Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper

    BTW the practice of the owner registering their address as that of their tenant is really frustrating if it is the owner who is responsible for behaviour of the tenant.


    Easy answer to that is that generally they're not responsible for the behaviour of the tenant.
  • RHemmings
    RHemmings Posts: 4,894 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 30 September 2024 at 1:53PM
    BTW the practice of the owner registering their address as that of their tenant is really frustrating if it is the owner who is responsible for behaviour of the tenant.  Perhaps R.Hemmings could start a new thread on this one as it is not relevant to the OP's thread. 

    Hmmm... I'm not sure we haven't covered it already enough in this thread. While it's off-track for the OP, it is relevant to other discussion above. I'm not wanting to create a new thread for that. But, go ahead if you want to. I'll post in it. 

    I find the description of the situation by @Land_Registry interesting, because to me it always looked a bit suspicious. But, if it's just people not realising that they should change the address to their own (more or less), that's different. 
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,142 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 30 September 2024 at 2:14PM
    RHemmings said:

    I find the description of the situation by @Land_Registry interesting, because to me it always looked a bit suspicious. But, if it's just people not realising that they should change the address to their own (more or less), that's different. 
    It's always easier to have suspicions than to convincingly allay them I guess but in my experience the main reason why a registered owner (landlord or not) often has the property address as their contact address, is invariably because that conversation is not always had between conveyancer and client. 
    But of course only the actual owner/landlord can confirm/allay suspicions as for example HMLR is reliant on the submitted paperwork at the time. Responsibility for ensuring a contact address is up to date/accurate is very much an owner's responsibility
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • user1977 said:

    BTW the practice of the owner registering their address as that of their tenant is really frustrating if it is the owner who is responsible for behaviour of the tenant.


    Easy answer to that is that generally they're not responsible for the behaviour of the tenant.
    This is like pulling teeth.  The owner is responsible in my transfer deed to pay towards mainenance etc of shared spaces and most importantly not to cause or suffer to be caused nuisance annoyance or disturbance - both = restrictive covenants.

  • RHemmings said:

    I find the description of the situation by @Land_Registry interesting, because to me it always looked a bit suspicious. But, if it's just people not realising that they should change the address to their own (more or less), that's different. 
    It's always easier to have suspicions than to convincingly allay them I guess but in my experience the main reason why a registered owner (landlord or not) often has the property address as their contact address, is invariably because that conversation is not always had between conveyancer and client. 
    But of course only the actual owner/landlord can confirm/allay suspicions as for example HMLR is reliant on the submitted paperwork at the time. Responsibility for ensuring a contact address is up to date/accurate is very much an owner's responsibility
    Perhaps I have been unlucky.  The previous owner nextdoor was an Estate Agent and the current on a Property Developer.  Both have registered the house as their address but the EA did try to sell it before letting it so I found his office and visited him.  Eventually I appointed a solicitor to act for me re extreme nuisance by his tenant; his solicitor took one look at the transfer deed and advised him to settle.  After evicting the tenant he sold it very quickly to the developer who moved his sister in with the property registered in the name of his very elderly mother with a charge from a mortgage company. The conveyancer worked for the solicitor who acted for me with the EA.  When I asked him to help he said his firm could not act for either of us due to conflict of interests!  Not long after this the solicitor's firm was sold to a dodgy company which I then found was under investigation by the Law Society.  

    Sorry to the OP to continue to post.  I will start a new thread no so, excluding Land Registry, will others please drop thiis subject and tenancies/property fraud too.

  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 9,706 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper
    Land Registry info is SO helpful.  Thank you. 

    Is there any chance that a code system could be used so that changes to registrations will only be processed by LR if the code is supplied only to the current registered owner (with a note to advise that it is kept with their will)? 
    Such ideas/suggestions are always welcome but it's important to remember that we are a 'land' registry rather than a 'people' registry. That may read oddly but it's important to remember that the idea relies on the person here and not the property and until we for example progress ways in which we (that's all of us and government) are able to safely and securely nail down digital and personal identities it's very hard to make such ideas work in reality.
    Property fraud, like many other types of fraud, rely on the fraudster being able to steal an individual's identity for example. So a personal code is unique to the individual so also susceptible to being stolen and used in a fraudulent way.
    It's a similar issue to why the 'Tell us once' process doesn't include property updates as knowing IF the named individual is one and the same as the person registered as the owner does not currently exist.
    Hence why keeping your contact details up to date and using the free Property Alert Service are invariably sufficient to help you prevent you/your property being a victim of fraud.

    Hopefully the OP won't mind a small deviation from the thread subject, but has there been any discussion/thought about us being able to get alerts for unregistered land?  For example allowing land of interest to be identified in the alert system by OS coordinate(s) rather than by title number.

    The reason for asking is that unregistered land seems more vulnerable to potential fraud - and I'm thinking of a situation where an elderly person is the owner of a plot of unregistered land and has no inclination to get it registered (which might be the obvious solution to us :) ) and at the moment LR have no idea they are the owner so wouldn't know to contact them if there was a fraudulent first registration attempt. (may also have some relevance to non-fraudulent AP situations as well?)
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,142 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Section62 said:

    Hopefully the OP won't mind a small deviation from the thread subject, but has there been any discussion/thought about us being able to get alerts for unregistered land?  For example allowing land of interest to be identified in the alert system by OS coordinate(s) rather than by title number.

    The reason for asking is that unregistered land seems more vulnerable to potential fraud - and I'm thinking of a situation where an elderly person is the owner of a plot of unregistered land and has no inclination to get it registered (which might be the obvious solution to us :) ) and at the moment LR have no idea they are the owner so wouldn't know to contact them if there was a fraudulent first registration attempt. (may also have some relevance to non-fraudulent AP situations as well?)
    None that I am aware of and I can see a number of barriers, which you have inferred, in our attempting to try and offer such a service
    It again all comes back to individuals doing all that they can to protect their identity and land. That starts with the individual and for unregistered land with the actual deeds and the recommendation that getting it registered is a significant step to helping you protect yourself against the type of fraud you refer to. Not least because the tools available and as described can be used to help you protect yourself as well.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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