Wondering if this is suspicious, re buyer?

lesley2020

Asking if people think there is anything fishy here:

My brothers and I are selling a bungalow we inherited from our recently deceased dad, and we had a very quick offer from a bloke who is a cash buyer.

The estate agent commented that when they asked for ID, the guy just showed a non-utility bill of some kind with his name and address (he’s located some distance away in Wales) and a passport. The passport photo looked not much like the guy, but he claims that is because he has put on so much weight since it was taken.

Personally if it was a normal transaction between me and someone else, I would be minded to ask for further ID e.g. a driving license (though I guess that the guy could claim he doesn’t drive).

Should we be concerned? I.e. is there any way that if this guy is not who he says he is, could we end up selling the house but not getting the money? I don't really care who he is as long as we get the dough!

Our estate agent and solicitor is bona fide, but I guess the guy could be using one of the dicey solicitors out there and so confirmation of his ID by them would not necessarily be any guarantee (think he is supposed to provide them with 2 utility bills plus photo ID, I know we had to with ours).

If he is not who he says he is, but definitely has the money and will pay it, I suppose we have nothing to worry about? I mean, I assume that our solicitor checks that 'real' money has been transferred to a bank account and that the money can't be extracted out again, before handing over deeds?

Or could HMRC or someone get involved? Feeling a bit paranoid about it all.

Thanks.

RHemmings

You should receive the money because the actual transfer of the house will not happen until the full purchase price (minus deposit) has been received by your solicitors. 

If there is illegality involved in the purchase, then the house sale can be undone. But, this is very rare. Some situations where this may happen are described here: 

https://goodmove.co.uk/blog/buying-advice/can-a-house-sale-be-reversed-after-completion/

Certainly it's been my experience that buyers are put through stringent ID and money-laundering checks, and the buyer's solicitor should also be doing this. Some solicitors are better than others, but there shouldn't be any solicitors so dodgy that they aren't checking the buyer's ID. 

Do you know the name of your seller's solicitors? You should do at some time in the process. Then, you can look them up. E.g. here: https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/register/  

If I was in your situation, I would ask for the name of the buyer's solicitor, if you don't know already, and check them out. 

lesley2020

Thanks for the really useful info - believe the EA has the name of the solicitor, so shall do that.

lesley2020

Checked out the GoodMove info link - well-written. Overall view taken is that reversals happen very, very infrequently.

This para seems relevant:

"For example, reversals have happened when it has come to light after completion that the buyer created their mortgage deposit through criminal means like money laundering. This illegality provides grounds for undoing the sale, with ownership transferred back to the innocent seller."

I think the question I would ask is "If the buyer obtained his dough via a bank robbery, then bought a house, exchanged contracts and then gave the seller the money for the house and took ownership, could the State then step in and demand money back from the house sale? (and then presumably returning house back to seller)"

Yes, I am being paranoid! But still a valid question, unfortunately.

theartfullodger

Let your solicitor handle this.

Sounds dodgy, but who knows?  I'd leave it on the market, online, as available until YOU are confident this is legitimate.

In particular your solicitor confirming he's seen proof of the cash in bank accounts.

"Cash buyers" often seem to need mortgage.

Good luck.

user1977

lesley2020 said:

I think the question I would ask is "If the buyer obtained his dough via a bank robbery, then bought a house, exchanged contracts and then gave the seller the money for the house and took ownership, could the State then step in and demand money back from the house sale? (and then presumably returning house back to seller)"

Yes, I am being paranoid! But still a valid question, unfortunately.

Surely the criminal proceeds would then be the property bought by the criminal? I've never heard of proceeds of crime being traced to whoever sold property to the criminal. I think that (the former) has occasionally happened with real estate, you'll probably have seen the police showing off e.g. flash cars recovered from drug dealers - they don't try to recover the cash from whoever sold them the cars.

Anyway, why are you not asking your own solicitor for advice? Seems a bit odd to be chatting to the estate agent about it when they're probably just as clueless about the legal implications.

RHemmings

The examples in the link above are primarily where the seller (or their relatives) want to undo the sale. I haven't been able to find an example where a house sale was undone because the house was bought with dodgy money. That doesn't mean that such a case doesn't exist.

If the house was bought with dodgy money, i.e. money from the proceeds of crime, then the house can be taken, and sold off to recover the stolen money. E.g. as in here: https://www.stuartmillersolicitors.co.uk/poca-can-house-be-taken But, that's repossession from the dodgy buyer. I haven't found a case where an honest seller of the house had to repay the money involved. Again, that doesn't mean that such a case doesn't exist. Just as a random forum person (not a lawyer, prosecutor, police officer, etc.), I personally wouldn't worry about this if the seller's solicitor is registered with the SRA. 

EDIT: However, if the buyer is dodgy, I would be concerned about other types of dodginess. E.g. trying to unreasonably negotiate the price down after a survey. 

lesley2020

user1977 said:

Surely the criminal proceeds would then be the property bought by the criminal? I've never heard of proceeds of crime being traced to whoever sold property to the criminal. I think that (the former) has occasionally happened with real estate, you'll probably have seen the police showing off e.g. flash cars recovered from drug dealers - they don't try to recover the cash from whoever sold them the cars.

Anyway, why are you not asking your own solicitor for advice? Seems a bit odd to be chatting to the estate agent about it when they're probably just as clueless about the legal implications.

Hi - think my concern re property being reclaimed comes from years ago having bought a second-hand car and then it being reclaimed by the rightful owner (it had been stolen) via the police. Got zero compensation for that!

The EA mentioned the ID oddity regarding the buyer on Friday, not had chance to talk with my solicitor, hence asking here now.

lesley2020

RHemmings said:

If the house was bought with dodgy money, i.e. money from the proceeds of crime, then the house can be taken, and sold off to recover the stolen money. E.g. as in here: https://www.stuartmillersolicitors.co.uk/poca-can-house-be-taken But, that's repossession from the dodgy buyer. I haven't found a case where an honest seller of the house had to repay the money involved. Again, that doesn't mean that such a case doesn't exist. Just as a random forum person (not a lawyer, prosecutor, police officer, etc.)

Thanks - as the other poster said, it seems more likely that the house - once transferred to Mr Dodgy - would be confiscated and sold, rather than someone come knocking at our doors to snatch the money out of our hands!

You advice has been helpful,thanks.

Albermarle

Personally I would be more worried that they were perhaps a bit of a dodgy character generally and might not be a proper cash buyer- just a chancer.

user1977

lesley2020 said:

user1977 said:

Surely the criminal proceeds would then be the property bought by the criminal? I've never heard of proceeds of crime being traced to whoever sold property to the criminal. I think that (the former) has occasionally happened with real estate, you'll probably have seen the police showing off e.g. flash cars recovered from drug dealers - they don't try to recover the cash from whoever sold them the cars.

Anyway, why are you not asking your own solicitor for advice? Seems a bit odd to be chatting to the estate agent about it when they're probably just as clueless about the legal implications.

Hi - think my concern re property being reclaimed comes from years ago having bought a second-hand car and then it being reclaimed by the rightful owner (it had been stolen) via the police.

Ok, but the closer analogy now would be the other way round i.e. you selling a house you didn't actually own...