EV Public Charging Rip Off and Chaos

MattMattMattUK

Postofficehater said:

I was searching to see if some experienced EV owner could show me the light on this issue but it appears my research was correct :-( I have just literally purchased my 1st EV that is capable of between 190-250 miles depending on temp etc. We visit Cornwall a few times a year at around 240 miles away. I was horrified at the prices on ZapMap for any kind of chargers, be it 7kw up to over 100kw, most being 79p per KW! This is disgusting as I can charge at home for 7p per KW. I don't mind paying a little premium for convenience but this trip would work out more than twice of what it would have cost me in my old diesel vehicle!

You can charge at home for 7p in specific charging windows, not whenever you want, so that is not a sensible comparison. Daytime energy over three phase will be costing the charging company 35-40p per kWh and that ignores the cost of the infrastructure. 

Postofficehater said:

No wonder the Government can't get people to take EVs up! Rant over. Thanks.

EV takeup is reasonable in the UK, if we want to encourage it we need both carrot and stick. The carrot should be subsidies to roll out charging networks, I am all for that being state owned as a GovCo. The other should be a stick, increased duty on fuel to encourage the move away, using that additional income to fund the investment in EV charging. 

born_again

Keep_pedalling said:

The UK is still heavily dependant on imported fossil fuel to generate much of its electricity, France only 8% was generated that way last year so they are almost self sufficient in their electricity demands. 

National grid live would disagree with you. Select past year for a true idea.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

last year UK renewable was the biggest source for our electricity 😍

You can also forget coal now, as last power station has closed.


UK chargers are paid for by private investor groups. Who want the return on the loans. Given a charger will spend more of it's time not being used then it can only come from cost per kW.

ThorOdinson

XRS200 said:

Is electricity cheaper in France? 

EDF is nationalised and the government makes sure they keep the price low. In fact they just had a price cut.

We get absolutely fleeced in this country.

WellKnownSid

In France, putting up the electricity price would result in mass protests by people in yellow vests - cars would burn, cities would grind to a halt, the public sector would strike in sympathy.

In the UK, putting up the electricity price will result in Dave writing a very strongly worded post on a forum.

MattMattMattUK

ThorOdinson said:

XRS200 said:

Is electricity cheaper in France? 

EDF is nationalised and the government makes sure they keep the price low. In fact they just had a price cut.

France built the nuclear power plants from taxpayer funds, they took the view that long term investment was worth it, our government did not.

ThorOdinson said:

We get absolutely fleeced in this country.

The reason that the French can afford state built, owned and operated nuclear power is because they pay far higher taxes than we do in the UK, it is also the reason for better healthcare, education, pensions, roads, policing etc. In the UK 55% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in taxes, more than 95% of people are a lifetime burden on the state. We have the largest tax free allowance in the EU, we have the lower starting rates of taxation. In the UK the bottom and middle third of earners have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU, the top third have the fifth highest. The reality is that taxes are too low in the UK for everyone, but especially the bottom and middle third of earners, that is why we cannot have nice things, that is why we cannot afford to invest, that is why we have a huge debt and deficit. 

Postofficehater

MattMattMattUK said:

The reason that the French can afford state built, owned and operated nuclear power is because they pay far higher taxes than we do in the UK, it is also the reason for better healthcare, education, pensions, roads, policing etc. In the UK 55% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in taxes, more than 95% of people are a lifetime burden on the state. We have the largest tax free allowance in the EU, we have the lower starting rates of taxation. In the UK the bottom and middle third of earners have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU, the top third have the fifth highest. The reality is that taxes are too low in the UK for everyone, but especially the bottom and middle third of earners, that is why we cannot have nice things, that is why we cannot afford to invest, that is why we have a huge debt and deficit. 

You really think we should be taxed more than we are? The reason our taxes don't stretch far enough for things to be fixed and invested in is because we have a properly incompetent government paying all their mates extortionate rates to deliver diddly squat. Until we actually have good accountants running the ship, it will be like this regardless, even if they taxed every last penny off us!

k12479

DevonCodger said:

This all requires a deep journalistic dive into profiteering, consumer manipulation and government insouciance.

Does it? Have you reviewed all the journalistic output there's been on the subject, and there's been a lot, and found it lacking or have you just ranted without bothering to do any research first?

ThorOdinson said:

EDF is nationalised and the government makes sure they keep the price low. In fact they just had a price cut.

We get absolutely fleeced in this country.

French government sticks it to EDF https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/14/france-edf-cap-household-energy-bi
French government has to prop up EDF  https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/18/french-government-to-inject-more-than-2bn-in-edf-energy-group

MattMattMattUK

Postofficehater said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The reason that the French can afford state built, owned and operated nuclear power is because they pay far higher taxes than we do in the UK, it is also the reason for better healthcare, education, pensions, roads, policing etc. In the UK 55% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in taxes, more than 95% of people are a lifetime burden on the state. We have the largest tax free allowance in the EU, we have the lower starting rates of taxation. In the UK the bottom and middle third of earners have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU, the top third have the fifth highest. The reality is that taxes are too low in the UK for everyone, but especially the bottom and middle third of earners, that is why we cannot have nice things, that is why we cannot afford to invest, that is why we have a huge debt and deficit. 

You really think we should be taxed more than we are? 

Yes! We have the lowest rate of taxation in the EU. More than half of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in tax, let alone benefits in kind, our taxes are too low.

Postofficehater said:
The reason our taxes don't stretch far enough for things to be fixed and invested in is because we have a properly incompetent government paying all their mates extortionate rates to deliver diddly squat.

That might be a factor in why the tax revenue we do collect does not go as far as it could, but it still does not counter the fact that we collect less in taxes than any other EU nation, our taxes are too low.

Postofficehater said:
Until we actually have good accountants running the ship, it will be like this regardless, even if they taxed every last penny off us!

It will not. Every country has an element of wastage and inefficiency. The French state for example is actually quite beaucratic and inefficient by some standards, but because they collect greater amounts of tax they have better services. 

The problem in the UK is that too many people think "someone else" should pay, that they should not pay enough tax to even fund themselves. We talk of tax being a burden, other European countries talk of making a contribution, until we change that petty mindset nothing will change. 

Petriix

It's almost exactly the same difference as comparing the price of a pint in the pub to a can of beer bought from the supermarket. Except people seem to enjoy using pubs while most EV owners avoid public charging wherever possible. And, while pubs have a long history of serving the community, EV charging is a relatively new offering which most people haven't tried yet. 

I totally agree that it's horrendously overpriced. Most current EV owners are relatively well off which has the twofold impact of a) making it more likely that they have their own home with off street parking required for cheap EV charging; and b) the occasional expensive charging session doesn't really hurt them.

The disparity between those who can charge cheaply at home and those who must depend on extortionate public charging is a massive issue and presents a significant barrier to many making the switch. Leaving it to 'the market' and accepting that someone has to be able to profit from it before it's a viable option can only lead to the mess we currently see. 

In my opinion, people should be able to access their home energy tariff while charging away from home, with a small mark up for the administration. The majority of the cost should be borne by the big companies which profit from road use. This is, however, unlikely to come to pass given the current narrow (and highly regressive) economic consensus. Sorry folks, we couldn't prevent a catastrophic climate disaster because it wouldn't have generated enough profit... 

DullGreyGuy

DevonCodger said:

Isn’t it about time someone with a high media profile aggressively championed the burgeoning number of EV drivers over the continuing public EV charging chaos and rip offs that continue in this country? I was recently in Brittany in a similar area to my own in Devon. Six miles away at a McDonald’s there were two 120kw chargers costing €0.30 (25p) per kwh. Although there seemed to be many EVs about, these were always available. In this country I would be paying at least 60p even if I could find an equivalent charger that close to my home. This is more expensive per mile than my similarly sized previous petrol vehicle.
Add to this the ridiculous bunch of cards it is now necessary to carry because suppliers aren’t forced by law to enable payment by standard credit/debit cards at their lowest price which, in my view, they most definitely should be. Then, of course, there is the number and state of repair of the chargers themselves. We are continually being told that the picture is improving but given the above, visiting family members in North Norfolk still looks like an expensive logistical headache. This all requires a deep journalistic dive into profiteering, consumer manipulation and government insouciance.

A poor comparison with far too many details missing

Look at the price of petrol for ICE cars... in USD prices range from over $3 to under $0.03 per L across the world and thats before you correct for pegged currencies. Until recently if we went back home you paid $1 to have your car filled pretty much irrespective how much fuel was dispensed as long as you were paying with a USD note. Technically its still available if you're willing to queue all day but want to drive up and get served straight away and you'll be paying $0.50 per L at a non-state fuel station.