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Invalid Warrant Forced Entry
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MattMattMattUK said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:MP1995 said:I feel like some youtube warrant magna carta responses is where this conversation would go if on Facebook.
In the"real" world it wasn't a warrant where they rifle through your smalls it was just a warrant to get to an internal meter. Surely if it had been tampered with you wouldn't want the risk of an electrical fire or gas leak?
Did it really affect you that much?
You should raise a complaint and get some sort of goodwill gesture through that complaint or escalating to the ombudsman service should you wish.
The warrant as issued is very unlikely to say "Only if the property is unoccupied", or similar. Most likely it grants permission to enter dwelling X between two dates, possibly with a time stipulation (eg. the access must be between 08:00-18:00). Now it may have been granted on the basis that the dwelling was unoccupied, but that does not impact the validity of the warrant. It will also usually state a purpose, eg. check supply, change meter, options relating to energy supply etc.0 -
Qyburn said:The Police were apparently satisfied the warrant was valid.0
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@MattMattMattUK
They can't force entry into a property in my name with a warrant that is not in my name? That would be bonkers surely?0 -
They wont know it's changed hands so the warrant will supposedly be for the address as well as the person but probably either is fine for entry. Address is correct....in they go.
This has happened with some of our tenants over the years and we have had to deal with irate tenants and when checked the energy supplier does have the right to enter the property to read and inspect their property (the meters)
It really is not worth bothering fighting this after the fact except to get yourself a little compensation.
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doodling said:Hi,
There are several parts to this:
Criminal Law:
It us against the law to break into people's homes without valid authority, at the very least, the offence of criminal damage may have been committed if the warrant was invalid (noting that minor errors on a warrant would not render it invalid).
The way to get the criminal law enforced is (generally) through the police. If they won't help then you are stuck, unless you have substantial money to mount a private prosecution.
Civil Law:
If the actions of people breaking into your house caused you a financial loss (e.g. you had to pay to replace a lock) then you can sue those people for your loss. Unless you have suffered substantial medically certifiable harm then those losses will be limited to financial loss only, not compensation for your time or any mental anguish.
To get recompense this way you need to formally claim against your energy supplier and/or whoever it was who actually broke in through the courts.
Industry Schemes:
Energy suppliers like to keep on the good side of regulators and to be seen to be addressing complaints. There is also an industry ombudsman who has some power to award compensation.
To claim this way, you need to start a formal complaint with your supplier and then escalate it to the ombudsman if you are not satisfied. The amount will be a small sum in recognition of the error, perhaps in the low hundreds of pounds.
The third of the above approaches will be by far the easiest.0 -
MP1995 said:They wont know it's changed hands so the warrant will supposedly be for the address as well as the person but probably either is fine for entry. Address is correct....in they go.
This has happened with some of our tenants over the years and we have had to deal with irate tenants and when checked the energy supplier does have the right to enter the property to read and inspect their property (the meters)
It really us jot worth hithering fighting this after the fact except to get yourself a little compensation.0 -
Scot_39 said:The firm was issued with a warrant to do the job. It was executed.
It is not "your home" you do not own it and as such are certainly not responsible for any major repairs.
It's your landlords.
It is not either of your meters - but the energy suppliers.
The change in ocupancy, given the reason you think the warrant was issued, seems to me pretty irrelevant.
Edit : Less clear though if a debt payment issue admittedly if should have happened - and can see it might be seen as a stain on your reputation etc.
If you were there to allow access and refused, it may well have been exercised anyway. Just as the previous tennant (or less likely landlord) may have failed to grant access.
And at least you know the meter hasn't been tampered with and in an unsafe condition - with either gas or electric - both come with real risks - explosions, fire etc.
And it wasn't surely your property but the landlords that would have sustained any damage - thinking forcing main door or it's locks and cleaning carpets if muddy boots at a push.
If you incurred costs - claim it back from landlord - leave them to claim costs / compensation from firms.
Landlords have the right of entry - it used to even be exercised with no notice - not sure if that still allowed.
As incidentally do the DNOs (responsible for incoming supply - ahead of meters - so if suspected tampering - potentialy their remit) - especially where safety an issue. And that's not just for the supply to the property - but if a neighbours supply is through the property.
You were simply caught in a likely long time chain - from likely a series of requests for access, refusals, warrant application, installer being authorised, installer executing - potentially several months.
If they changed the meter operation - say from credit to smart prepay - they may even have saved you a few pennies - its now the cheapest cap at TDCV on average. But supplier should be able to switch back.
It's really not your fight but your landlords.
Take the apology, move on.
Edit : just re read the OPs post - and realise it was not the OP that brought up the potential for tampering as cause - but did then seem to confirm the possibility in a later response. My apologies.Hi @Scot_39 there aren't many things we disagree on so I hope you'll allow me this one without us falling outJust because this is a rented property doesn't mean that it isn't the OP's home. We all have the right to privacy and to feel secure in our homes whether we own them or rent them. I can see that many of the people responding to this post don't see it as a big deal. I respect and understand that position, but it certainly would be a big deal to me. The idea that someone had rocked up to my home and entered without my prior knowledge or agreement would freak me out and leave me feeling quite uncomfortable, as I'm sure it would to anyone with anxiety issues and some of the elderly folk I know.The reason that warrants are needed is to provide a level of protection. That should be well known, understood and respected by anyone exercising those warrants. At the very least I think the decision to go ahead and enter the property knowing that it was occupied was unprofessional even if it subsquently turns out to be legal.I'm an out and out pragmatist most of the time and don't tend to do things purely as a matter of principle. But this is one occasion when I would be - an invasion of the sanctity and privacy of my home is something I would have a big issue with. I wouldn't be doing it to make a few quid in compensation if in truth I wasn't that bothered by it - I'd be doing it to make a point to whoever was exercising the warrant that if they had done this without following the process they had stepped over the line. Having made the point, an apology would be all I'd be looking for (as long as that was genuine). The more I felt I was being brushed off, the more I would pursue this.I think that there is good reason to be critical of the Police response here who, in my view, don't seem to have taken the matter as seriously as they should have done. I'd probably try the Police again, and if that didn't work I'd consider writing to the local Police Commissioner.5 -
TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:MattMattMattUK said:TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:MP1995 said:I feel like some youtube warrant magna carta responses is where this conversation would go if on Facebook.
In the"real" world it wasn't a warrant where they rifle through your smalls it was just a warrant to get to an internal meter. Surely if it had been tampered with you wouldn't want the risk of an electrical fire or gas leak?
Did it really affect you that much?
You should raise a complaint and get some sort of goodwill gesture through that complaint or escalating to the ombudsman service should you wish.
The warrant as issued is very unlikely to say "Only if the property is unoccupied", or similar. Most likely it grants permission to enter dwelling X between two dates, possibly with a time stipulation (eg. the access must be between 08:00-18:00). Now it may have been granted on the basis that the dwelling was unoccupied, but that does not impact the validity of the warrant. It will also usually state a purpose, eg. check supply, change meter, options relating to energy supply etc.TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:@MattMattMattUK
They can't force entry into a property in my name with a warrant that is not in my name? That would be bonkers surely?TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:MP1995 said:They wont know it's changed hands so the warrant will supposedly be for the address as well as the person but probably either is fine for entry. Address is correct....in they go.
This has happened with some of our tenants over the years and we have had to deal with irate tenants and when checked the energy supplier does have the right to enter the property to read and inspect their property (the meters)
It really us jot worth hithering fighting this after the fact except to get yourself a little compensation.TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:
The company that forced entry knew it was occupied and the warrant was for an empty property - they even said to the neighbour, ' this property is supposed to be empty'...
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mmmmikey said:Scot_39 said:The firm was issued with a warrant to do the job. It was executed.
It is not "your home" you do not own it and as such are certainly not responsible for any major repairs.
It's your landlords.
It is not either of your meters - but the energy suppliers.
The change in ocupancy, given the reason you think the warrant was issued, seems to me pretty irrelevant.
Edit : Less clear though if a debt payment issue admittedly if should have happened - and can see it might be seen as a stain on your reputation etc.
If you were there to allow access and refused, it may well have been exercised anyway. Just as the previous tennant (or less likely landlord) may have failed to grant access.
And at least you know the meter hasn't been tampered with and in an unsafe condition - with either gas or electric - both come with real risks - explosions, fire etc.
And it wasn't surely your property but the landlords that would have sustained any damage - thinking forcing main door or it's locks and cleaning carpets if muddy boots at a push.
If you incurred costs - claim it back from landlord - leave them to claim costs / compensation from firms.
Landlords have the right of entry - it used to even be exercised with no notice - not sure if that still allowed.
As incidentally do the DNOs (responsible for incoming supply - ahead of meters - so if suspected tampering - potentialy their remit) - especially where safety an issue. And that's not just for the supply to the property - but if a neighbours supply is through the property.
You were simply caught in a likely long time chain - from likely a series of requests for access, refusals, warrant application, installer being authorised, installer executing - potentially several months.
If they changed the meter operation - say from credit to smart prepay - they may even have saved you a few pennies - its now the cheapest cap at TDCV on average. But supplier should be able to switch back.
It's really not your fight but your landlords.
Take the apology, move on.
Edit : just re read the OPs post - and realise it was not the OP that brought up the potential for tampering as cause - but did then seem to confirm the possibility in a later response. My apologies.Hi @Scot_39 there aren't many things we disagree on so I hope you'll allow me this one without us falling outJust because this is a rented property doesn't mean that it isn't the OP's home. We all have the right to privacy and to feel secure in our homes whether we own them or rent them. I can see that many of the people responding to this post don't see it as a big deal. I respect and understand that position, but it certainly would be a big deal to me. The idea that someone had rocked up to my home and entered without my prior knowledge or agreement would freak me out and leave me feeling quite uncomfortable, as I'm sure it would to anyone with anxiety issues and some of the elderly folk I know.The reason that warrants are needed is to provide a level of protection. That should be well known, understood and respected by anyone exercising those warrants. At the very least I think the decision to go ahead and enter the property knowing that it was occupied was unprofessional even if it subsquently turns out to be legal.I'm an out and out pragmatist most of the time and don't tend to do things purely as a matter of principle. But this is one occasion when I would be - an invasion of the sanctity and privacy of my home is something I would have a big issue with. I wouldn't be doing it to make a few quid in compensation if in truth I wasn't that bothered by it - I'd be doing it to make a point to whoever was exercising the warrant that if they had done this without following the process they had stepped over the line. Having made the point, an apology would be all I'd be looking for (as long as that was genuine). The more I felt I was being brushed off, the more I would pursue this.I think that there is good reason to be critical of the Police response here who, in my view, don't seem to have taken the matter as seriously as they should have done. I'd probably try the Police again, and if that didn't work I'd consider writing to the local Police Commissioner.0 -
TisInNeedOfHelp24 said:MP1995 said:They wont know it's changed hands so the warrant will supposedly be for the address as well as the person but probably either is fine for entry. Address is correct....in they go.
This has happened with some of our tenants over the years and we have had to deal with irate tenants and when checked the energy supplier does have the right to enter the property to read and inspect their property (the meters)
It really us jot worth hithering fighting this after the fact except to get yourself a little compensation.
Although what they can award will be quite limited.
What are your losses, what is the total you have in mind.1
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