Boundary Issue

PennysIntoPounds

This is so peculiar and my many sympathies to you!
Do you know why they want a communal garden/what they think they're entitled to do on your land? 
My interpretation (which is entirely a layman's understanding, mind) is that
-if the demarcation has been changed to them having responsibility/rights then you need to ask for them to provide better legal proof than just a hand-scrawled title page, especially as they moved in after you
-if that is accurate and the item eg fence that denotes that boundary is on 'their' land then they have a right to take it down but you can inform them you'll just be putting up another one a few inches in on your land so a waste of time and money on their part
-if you can't afford to or don't want to do that (which is fair enough!) then any boundary marker to denote legal land ownership is acceptable, and they would be trespassing if they crossed that row of flowers/pebbles/wooden ice cream sticks

Have they misinterpreted that if they 'own' the boundaries they own all the space 'touching' it as well? I am absolutely baffled 

Shadowscribe

They just want a bigger garden as far as we can gather and we have already told them we don't consent and we will put it in writing as well. 

Think it may be difficult to prove the fence is on our land - as I say they are adamant the inward T means they own the fence and it's their property and therefore on their land. 

It's just all very confusing and still have to live here so don't want things to escalate. 

Just trying to understand the legal position in case they don't accept our refusal and also if we ever sell we will have to disclose a dispute, so if we can prove it one way or the other technically it may not then qualify to be a dispute if its resolved. 

ThisIsWeird

Hi Shadowscribe.
Being a semi, presumably symmetrical, it should be very possible to identify the exact mid point between your two properties. Is it?
Are the adjacent rooms and windows and chimneys and stuff symmetrical? If so, you should be able to measure from such fixed points on both sides to arrive at what is effectively the centre of the wall that divides your two houses. Ta-dah - that's where the boundary lies.
Can you do this? Could you place a dot on your/their wall to indicate this central point? Cool - that's your boundary.
Q - where does the existing fence sit in relation to this dot? Fully on your side, fully on theirs, or straddling?
The actual 'boundary' is in essence an invisibly thin and imaginary line that divides your properties; you cannot 'see' it, but you can determine where it lies. It is usually indicated on your deeds plan as a black line, often ringed inside in red to indicate the extent of your estate. There should be written reference to this map to confirm.
Everything on your side of that invisible line is yours, and ditto for them.
So, what does your deeds map look like? Cool. And what does theirs look like? A mirror image? Marvelous.
If no written reference is made in your deeds about you having to 'maintain' a specific physical boundary, then there is usually an assumption that the dividing fence is 'party' or shared. You can therefore expect it to sit on this invisible line, straddling it. If it does do this, then it's shared, and no-one should do anything to it without the agreement of the other party. If agreement cannot be reached, then it's usually best to simply put up your own fence, fully on your side of this invisible line, with the backs of your posts pretty much touching that line. That positions your fence fully within your land, so it's 100% yours in every respect. No-one else should then touch it. You can take legal action against them if they do.
Even if the deeds suggest it's a party fence with shared responsibility, if one party is unreasonable about this, demands a particular style for example, or simply fails to contribute to its upkeep, the other party is often best to go on their own and fit their fence on their side and ignore anything party - I cannot see legal action being successful by the other party for doing this, deeds or no. For enforcement of a 'party' fence, the author of the deeds would need to become involved and enforce this. (That's my understanding).
Even if the deeds say that one owner should maintain a certain boundary, in practice there is very little that can be done to enforce this - unless, say, it's a new build and the developer is inclined to take action. For most properties, the builder/developer/author of the deeds is either dead, retired, or won't be bothered.
So, you can almost always take down your fence if you feel like it, and no-one can do anything about it. An exception to this is if one party has dawgs, children or other animals that they need to keep within their land - they have the responsibility to do this, so they need to maintain a physical fence, regardless of what the deeds say.
Phew.
What to do? 1) work out the exact location of the boundary between you. 2) download their full copy of their deeds. Put an anonymised version on here for us to look at, along with the relevant wording. 3) do ditto for your deeds. 4) check your house insurance for Legal Protection. 5) kick yourself if you don't have it. 6) until you work out the details above, be ready to be firm and matter-of-fact with this (almost certainly misguided) neighbour whenever they mention the fence. Explain, with a smile, that you are taking advice on the true situation of your respective boundaries, and - until you get a definitive answer - you strongly recommend that they do not do anything to alter what is currently there, as it could end up costly for them, and you don't want that. Also suggest that they obtain correct legal.advice to confirm their assumptions, before acting. Oh, and have your phone set to covertly record this conversation...

Shadowscribe

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi Shadowscribe.
Being a semi, presumably symmetrical, it should be very possible to identify the exact mid point between your two properties. Is it?
Are the adjacent rooms and windows and chimneys and stuff symmetrical? If so, you should be able to measure from such fixed points on both sides to arrive at what is effectively the centre of the wall that divides your two houses. Ta-dah - that's where the boundary lies.
Can you do this? Could you place a dot on your/their wall to indicate this central point? Cool - that's your boundary.
Q - where does the existing fence sit in relation to this dot? Fully on your side, fully on theirs, or straddling?
The actual 'boundary' is in essence an invisibly thin and imaginary line that divides your properties; you cannot 'see' it, but you can determine where it lies. It is usually indicated on your deeds plan as a black line, often ringed inside in red to indicate the extent of your estate. There should be written reference to this map to confirm.
Everything on your side of that invisible line is yours, and ditto for them.
So, what does your deeds map look like? Cool. And what does theirs look like? A mirror image? Marvelous.
If no written reference is made in your deeds about you having to 'maintain' a specific physical boundary, then there is usually an assumption that the dividing fence is 'party' or shared. You can therefore expect it to sit on this invisible line, straddling it. If it does do this, then it's shared, and no-one should do anything to it without the agreement of the other party. If agreement cannot be reached, then it's usually best to simply put up your own fence, fully on your side of this invisible line, with the backs of your posts pretty much touching that line. That positions your fence fully within your land, so it's 100% yours in every respect. No-one else should then touch it. You can take legal action against them if they do.
Even if the deeds suggest it's a party fence with shared responsibility, if one party is unreasonable about this, demands a particular style for example, or simply fails to contribute to its upkeep, the other party is often best to go on their own and fit their fence on their side and ignore anything party - I cannot see legal action being successful by the other party for doing this, deeds or no. For enforcement of a 'party' fence, the author of the deeds would need to become involved and enforce this. (That's my understanding).
Even if the deeds say that one owner should maintain a certain boundary, in practice there is very little that can be done to enforce this - unless, say, it's a new build and the developer is inclined to take action. For most properties, the builder/developer/author of the deeds is either dead, retired, or won't be bothered.
So, you can almost always take down your fence if you feel like it, and no-one can do anything about it. An exception to this is if one party has dawgs, children or other animals that they need to keep within their land - they have the responsibility to do this, so they need to maintain a physical fence, regardless of what the deeds say.
Phew.
What to do? 1) work out the exact location of the boundary between you. 2) download their full copy of their deeds. Put an anonymised version on here for us to look at, along with the relevant wording. 3) do ditto for your deeds. 4) check your house insurance for Legal Protection. 5) kick yourself if you don't have it. 

Thank you very much for this and sorry my response is quite brief - bed very soon I'm afraid. 

My instinct looking at our deeds/title plan as well as the windows and chimney is that the fence is straddling the boundary line. 

House insurance does have legal protection, however, they have said because there hasn't yet been an incident they can't give us any advice/help us. 

ThisIsWeird

Shadowscribe said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi Shadowscribe.
Being a semi, presumably symmetrical, it should be very possible to identify the exact mid point between your two properties. Is it?
Are the adjacent rooms and windows and chimneys and stuff symmetrical? If so, you should be able to measure from such fixed points on both sides to arrive at what is effectively the centre of the wall that divides your two houses. Ta-dah - that's where the boundary lies.
Can you do this? Could you place a dot on your/their wall to indicate this central point? Cool - that's your boundary.
Q - where does the existing fence sit in relation to this dot? Fully on your side, fully on theirs, or straddling?
The actual 'boundary' is in essence an invisibly thin and imaginary line that divides your properties; you cannot 'see' it, but you can determine where it lies. It is usually indicated on your deeds plan as a black line, often ringed inside in red to indicate the extent of your estate. There should be written reference to this map to confirm.
Everything on your side of that invisible line is yours, and ditto for them.
So, what does your deeds map look like? Cool. And what does theirs look like? A mirror image? Marvelous.
If no written reference is made in your deeds about you having to 'maintain' a specific physical boundary, then there is usually an assumption that the dividing fence is 'party' or shared. You can therefore expect it to sit on this invisible line, straddling it. If it does do this, then it's shared, and no-one should do anything to it without the agreement of the other party. If agreement cannot be reached, then it's usually best to simply put up your own fence, fully on your side of this invisible line, with the backs of your posts pretty much touching that line. That positions your fence fully within your land, so it's 100% yours in every respect. No-one else should then touch it. You can take legal action against them if they do.
Even if the deeds suggest it's a party fence with shared responsibility, if one party is unreasonable about this, demands a particular style for example, or simply fails to contribute to its upkeep, the other party is often best to go on their own and fit their fence on their side and ignore anything party - I cannot see legal action being successful by the other party for doing this, deeds or no. For enforcement of a 'party' fence, the author of the deeds would need to become involved and enforce this. (That's my understanding).
Even if the deeds say that one owner should maintain a certain boundary, in practice there is very little that can be done to enforce this - unless, say, it's a new build and the developer is inclined to take action. For most properties, the builder/developer/author of the deeds is either dead, retired, or won't be bothered.
So, you can almost always take down your fence if you feel like it, and no-one can do anything about it. An exception to this is if one party has dawgs, children or other animals that they need to keep within their land - they have the responsibility to do this, so they need to maintain a physical fence, regardless of what the deeds say.
Phew.
What to do? 1) work out the exact location of the boundary between you. 2) download their full copy of their deeds. Put an anonymised version on here for us to look at, along with the relevant wording. 3) do ditto for your deeds. 4) check your house insurance for Legal Protection. 5) kick yourself if you don't have it. 

Thank you very much for this and sorry my response is quite brief - bed very soon I'm afraid. 

My instinct looking at our deeds/title plan as well as the windows and chimney is that the fence is straddling the boundary line. 

House insurance does have legal protection, however, they have said because there hasn't yet been an incident they can't give us any advice/help us. 

Ok, that sounds promising, and makes sense - Ie chances are that your boundary with this neighb, at least, is shared responsibility. That does not mean they can take it down! (Confused by their 'T's, tho' - but there will be an explanation for this too.)
If you could confirm your respective deeds info as best as possible so that it is more than gut, that would help.
You'll need to do this if something happens in any case, so best do it now and be pre-informed. And post them on here for confirmation - after removing all IDing marks (if you wish!)
And finally, be ready in your head with what to say to the neighb the next time this is mentioned. Calm and reasonable and friendly, but making it clear that you advise them not to act without them first having taken legal advice; "Look, I really don't think it's the case that this fence can simply be taken down because one person wants to - I know it certainly cannot be done if it means that animals can wander into someone else's garden. I'm looking into this matter at the moment, and will let you know what I find. Please, you also check this out for yourself before doing anything, because it can become really messy ('and unpleasant' - if needed for emphasis) if the wrong thing is done. Yes? Ta muchly".  And you really should ideally be able to evidence having told them this - if they still go ahead having lost the ability to claim "we didn't know, 'guv", then they'll be double-stuffed. 
Cover these bases, and you should be fine. 
'Night. :-)

PennysIntoPounds

Excellent advice from @ThisIsWeird

I still can't get my head round them thinking they'll get a bigger garden though, do they not know that fence or no fence that's still your land and they can't help themselves to it? If they want to go to the effort and cost of taking down the fence (should it be intruding on 'their' land) then they'll gain a few centimetres 
I guess fair enough for them to ask if you want to join in with a communal garden but 'no thank you' should have been where that conversation stopped!

nicmyles

I think all the boundary stuff is a red herring. All you need to do is say:
-thanks for the idea, but we really value our private outside space, so we don't want a communal garden space - nothing against you, it's just not for us.
-if you remove the fence, we will have to erect a replacement on our land - so you will be spending time/money on fence removal, and we will be spending time/money on fence construction - all of which will be a waste of time/money to end up back at status quo
-our understanding is that the fence belongs to us anyway - we note that your deeds say you are responsible for maintaining the boundary - so this is a discrepancy that would require legal investigation before any action is taken - again, this seems a waste of time/money, given we'll end up back at status quo
-if you decide to proceed and there is no physical fence for a period of time, just want to check that you understand (sure this is stating the obvious, but just so we're clear), you are not entitled to enter our land
-sorry to be a pain, but we just can't agree to your proposal

user1977

And maybe a gentle suggestion that they seek legal advice given they are apparently so confused about the basic principles of land ownership...

Devongardener

It will cost a couple of hundred pounds but I’d suggest getting a professional boundary survey, which uses GPS to accurately establish the boundaries, in conjunction with the LR record.   I had to do this when selling my late mother’s house which had open plan front garden with 2 others on an asymmetric site, it transpired that one her neighbours had been using a sizeable chunk of her land as a flower bed.
If you still have copies of the property information forms the vendors of your property completed it would be worth a look to see what they declared regarding boundaries and fence ownership.   I wonder if the neighbours were told in those declarations by their vendors that they owned the fence.

ThisIsWeird

Survey shouldn't be required.

The exact location of this boundary at the house should be quite ascertainable and really beyond question, since it's a semi. The deeds will say everything else that needs to be said about the situation.

The only fly in this whole conundrum is the neighbour's seemingly altered deeds. Man, it would be great to catch them out on duplicitous activity.

Well done, Shadowscribe, for having LegProt