Boundary Issue

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

If the neighbours remove the fence and don't put anything to mark the boundary then are they not failing to abide by the requirement in the deeds?

Anyway OP as others have said your neighbour doesn't get it, just say the them "yes you are responsible for the boundary and can remove the fence if you wish but we will of course put up our own fence just inside the boundary in our garden and of course you don't have any permission to access our garden". 

I agree with the others that the whole concept your neighbours have dreamed up sounds extremely odd. 

Shadowscribe

Thanks for all the replies. 

I understand that we can put up a fence on our land - it's just the cost and hassle of doing so.

As the current fence panels and gravel board just slot into concrete posts, it's not too much effort to remove the panels and gravel boards themselves. 

Not to mention our understanding and advice when we bought the house was that it was shared boundary and so both parties are responsible for the repair, maintenance, replacement and renewal of the boundaries (such boundaries having either walls, fences or hedges. 

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

We've asked for the above in writing from their solicitor and want to be prepared with a counter-response we can put in writing to the solicitor - we have today put in writing to the neighbour that we don't consent to the removal of the fences nor give them permission to come into our garden. 

As I said we previously replaced some of the panels before the neighbour moved in and people we bought the house from said they'd installed the fence but did say on the property information form that it was shared. 

Just also very curious about this title plan of the neighbours with hand drawn inward T's and pen signatures. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Shadowscribe said:

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

Well yes they can I think but if the previous owner of your house paid for the fence you own it so they should take it down carefully and return it to you I guess. If they put up the fence they could take it down anyway.

You could go the other way and say it sounds great as you've always wanted to sit in their garden late at night with the radio on and nose into their kitchen windows and your swinger chums will love having a big garden for the weekly meetings (although that last bit could back fire!), might make them realise how ridiculous their idea is. 

KittenChops

Shadowscribe said:

Thanks for all the replies. 

I understand that we can put up a fence on our land - it's just the cost and hassle of doing so.

As the current fence panels and gravel board just slot into concrete posts, it's not too much effort to remove the panels and gravel boards themselves. 

Not to mention our understanding and advice when we bought the house was that it was shared boundary and so both parties are responsible for the repair, maintenance, replacement and renewal of the boundaries (such boundaries having either walls, fences or hedges. 

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

We've asked for the above in writing from their solicitor and want to be prepared with a counter-response we can put in writing to the solicitor - we have today put in writing to the neighbour that we don't consent to the removal of the fences nor give them permission to come into our garden. 

As I said we previously replaced some of the panels before the neighbour moved in and people we bought the house from said they'd installed the fence but did say on the property information form that it was shared. 

Just also very curious about this title plan of the neighbours with hand drawn inward T's and pen signatures. 

So have you got the neighbours' title plan from the land registry yet, to see if the official document also has the Ts on it?
I've just looked at ours (sent from our solicitor a week or so before we exchanged) & can see Ts on one side as expected (I don't believe the title plan for our previous property had Ts marked anywhere but might be wrong)

Land_Registry

A few things to mention here as it seems there maybe some misunderstandings around how such matters are dealt with although ultimately it's invariably down to neighbours to decide between themselves what happens next - plenty of people base their 'legal' understanding on what they have gleaned over the years and the reality isn't always the same.
A few Qs to perhaps ask yourself and then answer - very few title plans actually show 'T' marks. Deed plans can do but sometimes the Deed's wording includes them but none are actually shown on the plan and vice versa. So I'd suggest starting with checking and confirming what your neighbour's registered information includes.
It reads as if they might be referring to a Deed plan as that would be signed by the parties to the deed at the time - check as above
'T' marks are great as an indicator but invariably need words to explain their meaning, normally a personal covenant to maintain the boundaries marked with an inward T for example. Again the words would come from the Deed so something to check
Personal covenants, so where the person covenants to do something, are different to restrictive covenants, those where the person agrees not to do something eg not to keep chickens, not to sell liquor etc
Restrictive covenants bind the land/property against which they are imposed so continue indefinitely. Even when you sell up and move on. Personal covenants are different as they bind the person who covenanted so may fall away when you sell up and move on. They can be legally binding but invariably only if with each change of ownership (transfer) the buyer agrees to be bound by them as part of that new transfer deed. Essentially the purchase deed, the Transfer, includes a covenant to that effect made by the buyer/new owner
That may not always happen for a variety of reasons and as such the personal covenant re boundaries may remain in the Deed you may find that it is actually no longer legally enforceable - check
Having said all that the personal covenant still has a part to play as it can and often does influence individual owners and their understanding. That's the same as "it's always the left side" or vice versa and "the side with the panels is mine/yours" etc 
Add to that the conveyancing form most sellers complete to explain a variety of matters, inc boundary maintenance, and you have a mix of information and understanding that can be confirmed/checked as appropriate. It's then rarely about what's legally binding as nobody wants to end up in a costly legal argument. The better outcome is to share all available information, registered and otherwise, and then discuss and agree a way forward.
Our online blog seeks to explain the above as well - Drawing the line on boundaries – HM Land Registry (blog.gov.uk)
And taking this all a step further the modern (last 30 years or so) way that some owners try to 'solve' the issue is to erect their own fence for example on their own land. Can work but roll forward until the neighbour changes and things may not play out as expected as uncertainty arises over where the boundary actually lies and people assume it's where you put your fence - not always but it can happen
So whatever you decide/agree to do it is always best to try and formalise it in some way and if it warrants a boundary agreement then that option exists and it can then be registered.
And always remember that you, your neighbour and the boundary are all unique. What may work for others may not work for you/your neighbour. And of course neighbours change so that uniqueness always remains.

nicmyles

In my above comment, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you put up your own fence as clearly this would be costly. I'm suggesting you *tell them you will put up your own fence*, and suggest to them that this negates any imagined benefit of them removing theirs, so they might as well leave it as is.

Jemma01

wow, they think they can access your land and decide to make your garden a communal garden. They've consulted no solicitor, just some porky pies. The audacity to bully you into submission. Imagine sleeping at night knowing you're "THE neighbour from hell".

ThisIsWeird

Shadowscribe said:

Thanks for all the replies. 

I understand that we can put up a fence on our land - it's just the cost and hassle of doing so.

As the current fence panels and gravel board just slot into concrete posts, it's not too much effort to remove the panels and gravel boards themselves. 

Not to mention our understanding and advice when we bought the house was that it was shared boundary and so both parties are responsible for the repair, maintenance, replacement and renewal of the boundaries (such boundaries having either walls, fences or hedges. 

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

We've asked for the above in writing from their solicitor and want to be prepared with a counter-response we can put in writing to the solicitor - we have today put in writing to the neighbour that we don't consent to the removal of the fences nor give them permission to come into our garden. 

As I said we previously replaced some of the panels before the neighbour moved in and people we bought the house from said they'd installed the fence but did say on the property information form that it was shared. 

Just also very curious about this title plan of the neighbours with hand drawn inward T's and pen signatures. 

Well done for putting your lack of consent in writing.
I doubt very much that they have sought proper legal advice on this, as I'm pretty sure their solicitor would have explained to them a number of things, like a fence which straddles a boundary is shared, and them going over this line - even to pull out a post - would technically be trespass (pretty minor, but hey). Also, any part of the fence that you - or your predecessors - have paid for in full, belongs to you. And, they must must must keep their animals - that includes children - within their boundary.
It's all a bit bizarre. They are either misguided, or actually quite devious.
But, you have LP - you'll be fine.
One thing I'll keep on emphasising - evidence, evidence evidence. If you can, actually record or have witnessed all comms with them. Failing that, write down an account as verbatim as possible, dated and timed, immediately afterwards.
You can even up the ante a bit if you like, for example asking to take a photo of their 'T'd map - "Oh, that's interesting! It looks different to the one I've seen before! Do you mind if I take a photo of this?", and see their reaction.

Shadowscribe

KittenChops said:

Shadowscribe said:

Thanks for all the replies. 

I understand that we can put up a fence on our land - it's just the cost and hassle of doing so.

As the current fence panels and gravel board just slot into concrete posts, it's not too much effort to remove the panels and gravel boards themselves. 

Not to mention our understanding and advice when we bought the house was that it was shared boundary and so both parties are responsible for the repair, maintenance, replacement and renewal of the boundaries (such boundaries having either walls, fences or hedges. 

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

We've asked for the above in writing from their solicitor and want to be prepared with a counter-response we can put in writing to the solicitor - we have today put in writing to the neighbour that we don't consent to the removal of the fences nor give them permission to come into our garden. 

As I said we previously replaced some of the panels before the neighbour moved in and people we bought the house from said they'd installed the fence but did say on the property information form that it was shared. 

Just also very curious about this title plan of the neighbours with hand drawn inward T's and pen signatures. 

So have you got the neighbours' title plan from the land registry yet, to see if the official document also has the Ts on it?
I've just looked at ours (sent from our solicitor a week or so before we exchanged) & can see Ts on one side as expected (I don't believe the title plan for our previous property had Ts marked anywhere but might be wrong)

The only document we have managed to obtain from the Land Registry so far is the summary of title and title plan but these say they are not an "Official Copy" of the title plan - I think we can only obtain the official copy through a postal form so this is going to take time.

The documents we have so far obtained show no inward T's on either plan, including the official copy we have of our property from when we bought it. .  Both properties were built in the 1920s and our understanding is that inward T's on properties of this age are rare and tend to be on newer builds. 

Land_Registry said:

A few things to mention here as it seems there maybe some misunderstandings around how such matters are dealt with although ultimately it's invariably down to neighbours to decide between themselves what happens next - plenty of people base their 'legal' understanding on what they have gleaned over the years and the reality isn't always the same.
A few Qs to perhaps ask yourself and then answer - very few title plans actually show 'T' marks. Deed plans can do but sometimes the Deed's wording includes them but none are actually shown on the plan and vice versa. So I'd suggest starting with checking and confirming what your neighbour's registered information includes.
It reads as if they might be referring to a Deed plan as that would be signed by the parties to the deed at the time - check as above
'T' marks are great as an indicator but invariably need words to explain their meaning, normally a personal covenant to maintain the boundaries marked with an inward T for example. Again the words would come from the Deed so something to check
Personal covenants, so where the person covenants to do something, are different to restrictive covenants, those where the person agrees not to do something eg not to keep chickens, not to sell liquor etc
Restrictive covenants bind the land/property against which they are imposed so continue indefinitely. Even when you sell up and move on. Personal covenants are different as they bind the person who covenanted so may fall away when you sell up and move on. They can be legally binding but invariably only if with each change of ownership (transfer) the buyer agrees to be bound by them as part of that new transfer deed. Essentially the purchase deed, the Transfer, includes a covenant to that effect made by the buyer/new owner
That may not always happen for a variety of reasons and as such the personal covenant re boundaries may remain in the Deed you may find that it is actually no longer legally enforceable - check
Having said all that the personal covenant still has a part to play as it can and often does influence individual owners and their understanding. That's the same as "it's always the left side" or vice versa and "the side with the panels is mine/yours" etc 
Add to that the conveyancing form most sellers complete to explain a variety of matters, inc boundary maintenance, and you have a mix of information and understanding that can be confirmed/checked as appropriate. It's then rarely about what's legally binding as nobody wants to end up in a costly legal argument. The better outcome is to share all available information, registered and otherwise, and then discuss and agree a way forward.
Our online blog seeks to explain the above as well - 
And taking this all a step further the modern (last 30 years or so) way that some owners try to 'solve' the issue is to erect their own fence for example on their own land. Can work but roll forward until the neighbour changes and things may not play out as expected as uncertainty arises over where the boundary actually lies and people assume it's where you put your fence - not always but it can happen
So whatever you decide/agree to do it is always best to try and formalise it in some way and if it warrants a boundary agreement then that option exists and it can then be registered.
And always remember that you, your neighbour and the boundary are all unique. What may work for others may not work for you/your neighbour. And of course neighbours change so that uniqueness always remains.

Thanks for this - we are trying to go and get an official copy of the neighbour's title register and plan. 

We are just trying to avoid a very unpleasant conflict, confrontation and future issues if we decide to sell.

In my above comment, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you put up your own fence as clearly this would be costly. I'm suggesting you *tell them you will put up your own fence*, and suggest to them that this negates any imagined benefit of them removing theirs, so they might as well leave it as is.

Very true but think they may remove it just to spite us and to make us spend money (that we'd struggle to find) as they are currently very unhappy with us because we aren't willing to agree to what they want. 

Skiddaw1

No help I know, but what an utterly bizarre thing to want to do! I can't for the life of me understand their motivation.

OP, I do hope you can get this resolved comparitively painlessly. They really do sound as mad as a box of frogs.