Boundary Issue

Land_Registry

Shadowscribe said:

KittenChops said:

Shadowscribe said:

Thanks for all the replies. 

I understand that we can put up a fence on our land - it's just the cost and hassle of doing so.

As the current fence panels and gravel board just slot into concrete posts, it's not too much effort to remove the panels and gravel boards themselves. 

Not to mention our understanding and advice when we bought the house was that it was shared boundary and so both parties are responsible for the repair, maintenance, replacement and renewal of the boundaries (such boundaries having either walls, fences or hedges. 

They have allegedly sought legal advice and their solicitor has allegedly advised them that as their plan shows an inward T, they are solely responsible for the fence panels and so own the fence so can do what they want with the fence, including taking it down. 

We've asked for the above in writing from their solicitor and want to be prepared with a counter-response we can put in writing to the solicitor - we have today put in writing to the neighbour that we don't consent to the removal of the fences nor give them permission to come into our garden. 

As I said we previously replaced some of the panels before the neighbour moved in and people we bought the house from said they'd installed the fence but did say on the property information form that it was shared. 

Just also very curious about this title plan of the neighbours with hand drawn inward T's and pen signatures. 

So have you got the neighbours' title plan from the land registry yet, to see if the official document also has the Ts on it?
I've just looked at ours (sent from our solicitor a week or so before we exchanged) & can see Ts on one side as expected (I don't believe the title plan for our previous property had Ts marked anywhere but might be wrong)

The only document we have managed to obtain from the Land Registry so far is the summary of title and title plan but these say they are not an "Official Copy" of the title plan - I think we can only obtain the official copy through a postal form so this is going to take time.

The documents we have so far obtained show no inward T's on either plan, including the official copy we have of our property from when we bought it. .  Both properties were built in the 1920s and our understanding is that inward T's on properties of this age are rare and tend to be on newer builds. 

The official copy won't differ re detail from the downloaded register/title plan. But the plan they are referring to reads as if it is a 'deed plan' and not a title plan so worth checking their downloaded register to to see if it refers to a Deed being 'filed'
Not every property will refer to boundaries and such T marks or covenants. T marks can appear on old or new builds as they are a standard way of demonstrating responsibility but on their own, so no covenants/explanation as to their meaning their value is limited
As I posted every property is unique for a whole set of reasons so it's important to look at all available and unique information re your two properties and boundaries and then share and discuss understandings also. And both eyes on what ultimately you want to achieve.
What your seller did and what you have done all add to the mix re what happens next and the one thing you are right on is that finding a way forward and agreeing is best to avoid any issues either with the neighbour in the future and also when either of you come to sell.
Best advice is to focus on what it is you want to achieve and how best to do that. Putting things in writing is a very good idea but be very careful what you put as what you may mean may not come through in the written word which in turn can be problematic if things do escalate and are open to legal interpretation - hopefully that doesn't happen and often 'less is more' so stick with 'We don't agree to the changes you have proposed, namely..........'

ThisIsWeird

You have hopefully taken lots of photos of the current fence? 

I'd suggest either fitting a small outdoor CCTV camera aimed along its full length (avoiding seeing over its top), or having a quick means of recording handy, should you see them start to remove panels. If they do, go out, and state very clearly - so your camera/recording picks it up - "You know you do not have my permission to touch this fence" or words to that effect.

If this situation does escalate to 'legal' - and don't worry if it does - it will really help if you can tick all the boxes for your LP side; "Did you inform your neighbour that..." "YES!". Do you have photographs to sho..." "YES!" "Did you manage to capture the moment your neighbour picked up a post in a threatening manner..."

If you go CCTV, it's your call whether to fit it covertly or otherwise. No signage is required in either case as it covers only your property. Keep all the recordings secure, and don't share them - they are only for use if this escalates.

Finally, forget any concern about this becoming a 'dispute' - it is already a 'potential issue' that you must declare in your TA6 should it still be relevant by the time you come to sell. Some folks will warn you to avoid escalating to 'disputes' at almost any cost - I completely disagree (with provisos that it would be silly to escalate a virtual non-issue, of course. But this ain't one of them).

Just let this pan out, and keep the ongoing evidence comprehensive and secure. Chances are the idiot will realise they are on a hiding to nowhere, and will simply not do anything. You gather and keep the evidence secure for any future return. But, if they start taking down panels, you record, inform them again to desist, and report - your LP will do the rest. Your neighbour will discover what a foolish thing it was that they did, and will be put back in their box where they belong, with lighter pockets.

When you come to sell, you will be able to say that there was a disagreement over ownership and responsibility of the boundary fence, but that this has been clarified and fully resolved in the correct manner - it is no longer an issue (I'd buy your house). Far better than, "My neighbour thinks the fence is his to do with what he wants, and is still being a pain about it - you need to keep an eye on him..." (I'd seriously consider not buying...) :-)

Your neighbour sounds inconsiderate and deluded - an unpleasant mix. Often the type who will carry on doing stuff, thinking in their heads that they are entitled to more than other folks, if they are allowed to get away with it. Rarely do these situations completely go away by themselves - there is often a lingering, "Ok, they've gone quiet, but what will they try next?". There's only one way to stop this - EVIDENCE, and then action if&when needed. As much action as is required. Obviously, if they completely accept the info on the deeds map and what you say, then all is good. But if they touch that fence, you need to LegPro them.

Shadowscribe

Thank you both for the comprehensive replies. 

@Land_Registry we cannot see anything in the documents we have obtained so far that refer to a deed being filed. I've had a look at the HM Land Registry website and struggling to find information on how we can find out if a deed plan /deed has been filed and/or how it can be requested so if you could point us in the right direction that would be very much appreciated. 

We'd like the current fence to stay as is and in place as well as ensuring the neighbour does not come into our garden/start using our garden as their own. As I said, we want to avoid nastiness/unpleasantness and prevent matters from escalating, though I'm not sure how achievable this is given the neighbour's attitude. 

What we have put in writing is very much what you have suggested - namely that we do not consent to the proposals of a) the fence being removed b) a joint garden and that we don't consent to them, their pets or anyone else who resides or visits their property coming into our garden.  No reference to ownership of the boundary/fence has been made in writing by us to the neighbour as we want to make sure that we fully and accurately understand the position and have the evidence to back it up as at the moment there is a contradiction/discrepancy. 

@ThisIsWeird we have photos of the fence of when we moved in / prior to the neighbour moving in as well as photos of the fence panels we replaced and the order/invoice for those panels. Have taken more photos in recent days just to be absolutely sure.  Also have the TA6 form from when we bought the house and the report on title from the conveyancers relating to our property. All of which state it is shared but as above there is a big contradiction/discrepancy. 

We already have CCTV at the front and back of the house (they are positioned very carefully so as not to be overlooking, but do capture the fence line) - blink cameras and a ring doorbell - there is a sign in the front window that states CCTV is in operation. 

We are not planning to move anytime soon and in fact always thought we'd pretty much stay forever, but we know things can change and you are right it would be classed as dispute, but I was hoping that we would be able to say that whilst there was an issue, this has been clarified and resolved and is no longer in issue. 

Feel like I am going crazy and round in circles as our documents say one thing and the documents they have say something completely different. 

Land_Registry

Shadowscribe said:

Thank you both for the comprehensive replies. 

@Land_Registry we cannot see anything in the documents we have obtained so far that refer to a deed being filed. I've had a look at the HM Land Registry website and struggling to find information on how we can find out if a deed plan /deed has been filed and/or how it can be requested so if you could point us in the right direction that would be very much appreciated. 

We'd like the current fence to stay as is and in place as well as ensuring the neighbour does not come into our garden/start using our garden as their own. As I said, we want to avoid nastiness/unpleasantness and prevent matters from escalating, though I'm not sure how achievable this is given the neighbour's attitude. 

What we have put in writing is very much what you have suggested - namely that we do not consent to the proposals of a) the fence being removed b) a joint garden and that we don't consent to them, their pets or anyone else who resides or visits their property coming into our garden.  No reference to ownership of the boundary/fence has been made in writing by us to the neighbour as we want to make sure that we fully and accurately understand the position and have the evidence to back it up as at the moment there is a contradiction/discrepancy. 

The register will refer as appropriate - if you want to DM me and quote the relevant title number then happy to take a look and advise as to what information we hold and look to explain it
I shall resist posting again in the thread as conscious that there are a lot of thoughts/views being posted to help so you need to navigate your own way through this as you see fit - everything being shared here is helpful but it can be confusing to see the wood from the trees so to speak hence my emphasis on how unique you, your neighbour and the boundary are. And as such your information and understanding are what matter most here and then combine that with your neighbour also

ThisIsWeird

Shadowscribe said:

Thank you both for the comprehensive replies.
@Land_Registry we cannot see anything in the documents we have obtained so far that refer to a deed being filed. I've had a look at the HM Land Registry website and struggling to find information on how we can find out if a deed plan /deed has been filed and/or how it can be requested so if you could point us in the right direction that would be very much appreciated.
We'd like the current fence to stay as is and in place as well as ensuring the neighbour does not come into our garden/start using our garden as their own. As I said, we want to avoid nastiness/unpleasantness and prevent matters from escalating, though I'm not sure how achievable this is given the neighbour's attitude.
What we have put in writing is very much what you have suggested - namely that we do not consent to the proposals of a) the fence being removed b) a joint garden and that we don't consent to them, their pets or anyone else who resides or visits their property coming into our garden.  No reference to ownership of the boundary/fence has been made in writing by us to the neighbour as we want to make sure that we fully and accurately understand the position and have the evidence to back it up as at the moment there is a contradiction/discrepancy.
@ThisIsWeird we have photos of the fence of when we moved in / prior to the neighbour moving in as well as photos of the fence panels we replaced and the order/invoice for those panels. Have taken more photos in recent days just to be absolutely sure.  Also have the TA6 form from when we bought the house and the report on title from the conveyancers relating to our property. All of which state it is shared but as above there is a big contradiction/discrepancy.
We already have CCTV at the front and back of the house (they are positioned very carefully so as not to be overlooking, but do capture the fence line) - blink cameras and a ring doorbell - there is a sign in the front window that states CCTV is in operation.
We are not planning to move anytime soon and in fact always thought we'd pretty much stay forever, but we know things can change and you are right it would be classed as dispute, but I was hoping that we would be able to say that whilst there was an issue, this has been clarified and resolved and is no longer in issue.
Feel like I am going crazy and round in circles as our documents say one thing and the documents they have say something completely different.

Very comprehensive, Shadowscribe!

It must feel very strange indeed, to have what is almost certainly a perfectly normal and straightforward boundary situation to be challenged like this. It would be utterly bizarre, and highly unusual, if this neighbour had any right whatsoever to use your garden! Such an arrangement would be very clearly stated in your, and their, deeds. This would/should have been flagged up by your conveyancing solicitor at the time of purchase. Your vendor would/should have made this situation very clear.

If it is actually the case - which it almost certainly is not. As a non-betting fellow, I'd happily bet on this.

Very kind of LR to offer to check over the deeds.

This is not currently a 'dispute'. It is, at most, a situation which could potentially lead to a 'dispute', so you'd mention this in your TA6 if not resolved. Your neighbour has made a claim that is almost certainly nuts, and they'll need to evidence it before taking action. It's a bit like you claiming that their driveway is yours, for you to park your car on - it's just bonkers, and not a 'dispute'.

Even if it becomes a 'dispute' - if they actually take physical action, and you need to engage your LP - it'll quickly be resolved to their detriment, and the 'dispute' will be over. Yes, you inform any potential buyer (as I will with my situation) of what has taken place, but assure them it's fully resolved.