Does a freehold Invalidate the terms of a leashold?

smoothieee

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

Will a vote by share holders/free holders by X criteria becomes valid, i.e can they vote for it to be shared equally or by percentage?

Taking a step back, assuming the lease isn't defective, there are 2 ways that your lease can be varied (changed) in these types of circumstances...


1) The leaseholder and freeholder both agree to the changes

(In that case "who votes for what" is irrelevant. It's down to those 2 parties to agree.)



2) An application is made to a tribunal to vary the leases

(Under Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987)

In simple terms, that requires the support of 75% of leaseholders supporting the change, and fewer than 10% of the leaseholders objecting.

But if the result would be that you pay more Service Charge, you would tell the tribunal that the change would be prejudicial to you - and the tribunal would then probably reject the application.

Red Alert!

I have been on the phone all day with the management company as at when I bought my flat and from what and they said ''it was decided that the apportionment would be calculated by square foot''

While they have always been calculating my Annual Budget at 11.1 % apportionment, they have often reiterated that my lease states the apportionment method but on reviewing the lease with them this morning, the lease does not fully declare this 11.1 % apportionment, rather a generic term is used.

I am unsure what is the direct next step in this situation but I have booked an appointment with the leasehold advisory service for next week Monday so I will wait. I have also attempt to reach my last solicitor but she's indefinitely away as per auto response. 

In the maintime, the roofing work that is on-going needs payment of which I have said I am not able to to commit to at an equal share. Anyone with best advise please share.

propertyrental

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

Will a vote by share holders/free holders by X criteria becomes valid, i.e can they vote for it to be shared equally or by percentage?

Taking a step back, assuming the lease isn't defective, there are 2 ways that your lease can be varied (changed) in these types of circumstances...


1) The leaseholder and freeholder both agree to the changes

(In that case "who votes for what" is irrelevant. It's down to those 2 parties to agree.)



2) An application is made to a tribunal to vary the leases

(Under Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987)

In simple terms, that requires the support of 75% of leaseholders supporting the change, and fewer than 10% of the leaseholders objecting.

But if the result would be that you pay more Service Charge, you would tell the tribunal that the change would be prejudicial to you - and the tribunal would then probably reject the application.

Red Alert!

I have been on the phone all day with the management company as at when I bought my flat and from what and they said ''it was decided that the apportionment would be calculated by square foot''

While they have always been calculating my Annual Budget at 11.1 % apportionment, they have often reiterated that my lease states the apportionment method but on reviewing the lease with them this morning, the lease does not fully declare this 11.1 % apportionment, rather a generic term is used.

I am unsure what is the direct next step in this situation but I have booked an appointment with the leasehold advisory service for next week Monday so I will wait. I have also attempt to reach my last solicitor but she's indefinitely away as per auto response. 

In the maintime, the roofing work that is on-going needs payment of which I have said I am not able to to commit to at an equal share. Anyone with best advise please share.

Talk about blood out of a stone!

So what does the lease actually say?

smoothieee

propertyrental said:

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

Will a vote by share holders/free holders by X criteria becomes valid, i.e can they vote for it to be shared equally or by percentage?

Taking a step back, assuming the lease isn't defective, there are 2 ways that your lease can be varied (changed) in these types of circumstances...


1) The leaseholder and freeholder both agree to the changes

(In that case "who votes for what" is irrelevant. It's down to those 2 parties to agree.)



2) An application is made to a tribunal to vary the leases

(Under Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987)

In simple terms, that requires the support of 75% of leaseholders supporting the change, and fewer than 10% of the leaseholders objecting.

But if the result would be that you pay more Service Charge, you would tell the tribunal that the change would be prejudicial to you - and the tribunal would then probably reject the application.

Red Alert!

I have been on the phone all day with the management company as at when I bought my flat and from what and they said ''it was decided that the apportionment would be calculated by square foot''

While they have always been calculating my Annual Budget at 11.1 % apportionment, they have often reiterated that my lease states the apportionment method but on reviewing the lease with them this morning, the lease does not fully declare this 11.1 % apportionment, rather a generic term is used.

I am unsure what is the direct next step in this situation but I have booked an appointment with the leasehold advisory service for next week Monday so I will wait. I have also attempt to reach my last solicitor but she's indefinitely away as per auto response. 

In the maintime, the roofing work that is on-going needs payment of which I have said I am not able to to commit to at an equal share. Anyone with best advise please share.

Talk about blood out of a stone!

So what does the lease actually say?

this is the Text below, I have copied exactly whats it says from the lease she gave me word for word:

Service Charge

2.1 The Tenant shall pay the Landlord on demand a fair and reasonable proportion of the proper
costs incurred or properly estimated to be incurred by the Landlord in complying with its
obligations, contained in paragraph 3 of Schedule 6.

2.2 The Tenant shall pay the cost of employing a managing agent but if the Landlord does not
employ a managing agent the Tenant shall pay on demand a fair and reasonable
management fee to the Landlord.

They however said that as a a management company, ''it was decided that the apportionment would be calculated by square foot'' as this was deem fit (11.1% ) and that any other management company would have done the same but note that at the moment we no longer have a managing agency.

Also my invoices for several years has the 11.1 % but not the lease.

Please help, I have also been told to take this to the tribunal and I will be making an application soon but is this the best route for me when they insisting that I pay the same sum as the bigger flats for each single repair to the building?

eddddy

It's quite difficult to follow what you're saying. Maybe start by giving some basic information:

-  How many flats are there in the block?

-  Up until now, what percentage of the Service Charge have you been paying?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)

-  What percentage of the Service Charge have you been asked to pay in the future?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)


And what percentage of the service charge do you think you should be paying? (And why?)

smoothieee

eddddy said:

It's quite difficult to follow what you're saying. Maybe start by giving some basic information:

-  How many flats are there in the block?

-  Up until now, what percentage of the Service Charge have you been paying?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)

-  What percentage of the Service Charge have you been asked to pay in the future?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)


And what percentage of the service charge do you think you should be paying? (And why?)

9 flats are in the block.

11.1 %, we use to be leaseholder and we are now the freeholders after unresolved issues with the management company but, while we where using the managing company, service charged / all budget was apportioned and mine was 11%.

Since we now have the freehold, the bigger flats, 6 of them bigger than mine, all different sizes but mine is the smaller are pushing aggressively that we should split cost equally. My lease doesn't specifically say 11.1 Percent but according to conversations with the previous management company they said while my lease does not say 11.1 % thats they have used the discretion of the apportionment method as it as more equitable than an equal split.

we currently have a roof project ongoing at 16k and they want this split accross all 9 flats equally which wasn't what I was used to as per previous management company and it worth noting that at the moment we no longer have a managing agency. 

My thought has always been that my percentage of the service charge will remain 11.1 % but they are not asking for an equal split, this is now my situation and I don't fully know where to start from, is this clearer?

eddddy

smoothieee said:

is this clearer?

No - not really.

You seem to be saying:

• The Service Charge has always been split evenly between all 9 flats. i.e. Each flat pays 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• Then you say that the freeholder is "pushing aggressively that we should split cost equally." i.e. Each flat should pay 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• But you say you don't want to split the cost equally (i.e. pay 11.1%), you want to stick with the current scheme and pay 11.1%

So I'm not really sure what you're saying.

smoothieee

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

is this clearer?

No - not really.

You seem to be saying:

• The Service Charge has always been split evenly between all 9 flats. i.e. Each flat pays 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• Then you say that the freeholder is "pushing aggressively that we should split cost equally." i.e. Each flat should pay 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• But you say you don't want to split the cost equally (i.e. pay 11.1%), you want to stick with the current scheme and pay 11.1%

So I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

eddddy

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

noitsnotme

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

is this clearer?

No - not really.

You seem to be saying:

• The Service Charge has always been split evenly between all 9 flats. i.e. Each flat pays 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• Then you say that the freeholder is "pushing aggressively that we should split cost equally." i.e. Each flat should pay 11.1% (or 1/9th)

• But you say you don't want to split the cost equally (i.e. pay 11.1%), you want to stick with the current scheme and pay 11.1%

So I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

If you paid your original 11.1% of the £16k roofing bill you would pay £1776.

How much are they asking you to pay?  Because if all flats pay an equal share then you would pay….drum roll…. £1777.78!

A whole £1.78 extra!

It looks like you’ve always paid 1/9th i.e. an equal share.

Gentoo365

Yeah 1/9 = 11.1%. (ish)