Does a freehold Invalidate the terms of a leashold?

eddddy

So there are 5 flats in your block, not 9. 

With that new information, your numbers now make sense.

If I was in your position, I would write an email or letter to the freeholder(s) saying something like this:


"As you know, until now, my proportion of repairs and maintenance costs for my block has been 11.15%. I note that you want to change my proportion to 20%, in relation to the roof repairs.

Is your decision to change my proportion to 20% based on advice from a Chartered Buildings Surveyor, or other suitably qualified professional? If so, can you provide me with a copy of their report?

My lease requires that my proportion is fair and reasonable, and the The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 also requires that my Service Charges are reasonable.

If you are unable to provide reasonable evidence that 20% is a fair and reasonable proportion, I will almost certainly challenge any future Service Charge demand based on a 20% proportion at a tribunal.

If the tribunal decides in my favour, you will obviously be required to refund part of my Service Charge - which would leave you with insufficient funds to pay for the roof repairs."

noitsnotme

smoothieee said:

propertyrental said:

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

But the maths is fundamental to your problem! What % the lease requires you to pay (unspecified) and what % you have historically paid, and what % you are now being asked to pay are all relevant to your issue as to whether what you are now being asked to pay is either fair or legal.

You cannot ignore the maths as it is the maths that dictates what you pay.

And if you want serious advice, then providing all the facts is essential. "some variations in the percentage" does not help you get answers.

ThisIsWeird's Qs above would help clarify and hence help you get the advice you seek.

It has become clear that a lot of people are 100 trying to help me and have have brought together as much information, the math has been requested so often and please find below the percentage payment by all flat per service charge and the total budget for the roof repair.

Firstly, note that it is two buildings that are part of the freehold and when we use to be under a management company, I honestly had no idea that the freeholder was one person so when we bought the freehold, we bought it as one building, the buildings are next to each other. In simple language, these cost as treated as the cost from one Household. 

Above each flat is the %, my flat is the one with an arrow on the bottom image and below my flat number is apportionment % for service charge at 11.15%. The work that is being done is across both buildings and the second screenshot is how they've pushed for it to be divided equally.

When the works came up, I largely supported it but I told them I will only abide by apportionment method but the said that a fairer system will be a flat split because everyone benefits from a roof as you can imagine the entire votes really came from the big flat. 

two lots of payments is requested, the first one being, £795 and second £940, both due 12th of June, presumably. 

like I have also clarified this apportionment by % is not specified by my lease, it was historically done by discretion, on the basis of fairness according to the managing agent and neither does the lease say's anything about roof repairs. I have also attached section of the lease.

In summary, I am just unsure whats my best action as the lease does not dictate this, suck up and pay or push for this to be reviewed some sort of legislation and it is worth it, the value of my studio flat is 220K 

Screenshot 1 - Percentage of service across both building (Treated as one pot, one bank account)


Screenshot 2 - Roof repair budget across both buildings




Lease screenshot: does not indicate apportionment

I’m still a little confused.

Is screenshot 1 (for the service charges) the split when the management company was previously involved or is it still valid now that you are all freeholders?  So do you still only pay 11.15% towards the service charges now that the management company has gone?

Are all flats on the ground floor or is it a 2 storey building?

And if it’s more than storey are you on the ground floor or higher?

smoothieee

eddddy said:

So there are 5 flats in your block, not 9. 

With that new information, your numbers now make sense.

If I was in your position, I would write an email or letter to the freeholder(s) saying something like this:


"As you know, until now, my proportion of repairs and maintenance costs for my block has been 11.15%. I note that you want to change my proportion to 20%, in relation to the roof repairs.

Is your decision to change my proportion to 20% based on advice from a Chartered Buildings Surveyor, or other suitably qualified professional? If so, can you provide me with a copy of their report?

My lease requires that my proportion is fair and reasonable, and the The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 also requires that my Service Charges are reasonable.

If you are unable to provide reasonable evidence that 20% is a fair and reasonable proportion, I will almost certainly challenge any future Service Charge demand based on a 20% proportion at a tribunal.

If the tribunal decides in my favour, you will obviously be required to refund part of my Service Charge - which would leave you with insufficient funds to pay for the roof repairs."

Thank you very much, you have given me a voice. I am humbled by the support and I will keep you posted.

In summary, I am certain that you drew your conclusion taking into account that :

1) I have always been billed 11.5% even though it is not written on my lease.
2) That the vote they've cast via whatsApp (i.e the directors, otherwise neighbours) in favour of an equal split does not supercede my right to challenge this equal split?

3)Thirdly, as a neighbourly gesture, I am also willing to make a payment of 50%, of the total sum that I have been charged because I am aware that to repair the roof is a mutual goal. Please, I hope this does not conflict your message above, please what's your thoughts?

eddddy

smoothieee said:

In summary, I am certain that you drew your conclusion taking into account that :

1) I have always been billed 11.5% even though it is not written on my lease.
2) That the vote they've cast via whatsApp (i.e the directors, otherwise neighbours) in favour of an equal split does not supercede my right to challenge this equal split?

Yes - I have taken that into account. The vote is nonsense - I would ignore it.

Frankly, this is the kind of mess that can result from "a bunch of amateurs with silly ideas" taking over a freehold.


If you want, you could add to the email/letter :

"The vote is unenforceable and irrelevant. You cannot override my lease and the law by holding a vote.
On that basis, I am not prepared to discuss the vote.
If you believe otherwise, feel free to present the vote as evidence at a tribunal."


FWIW, The concept behind the Whatsapp vote is outrageously unfair. In my opinion, whoever organised that is a completely immoral rogue. (And the result of the vote is not binding on you.)

• Of the 10 leaseholders, currently 6 pay more than 20% and 4 pay less than 20% (for their respective blocks)

• So if you ask the 10 leaseholders "Shall we each pay 20% instead?" - of course you'll get a 6 to 4 majority saying "Yes"

On the basis that you seem to be dealing with a rogue, I would stop trying to reason with them - and start sending them formal emails/letters.




The only caveat is if you've signed some kind of deed which overrides your rights under the lease - but that would be very unusual. But in any case, I would still send the email/letter to see what reply you get.

eddddy

But another very important question...

Has the freeholder done a Section 20 consultation for the roof repairs?

eddddy

smoothieee said:

3)Thirdly, as a neighbourly gesture, I am also willing to make a payment of 50%, of the total sum that I have been charged because I am aware that to repair the roof is a mutual goal. Please, I hope this does not conflict your message above, please what's your thoughts?

It starts to get a bit more complex. It seems there are 2 blocks...  Is the same amount of work being done to both blocks?

Assuming it is,

• You have been asked to pay 20% of the cost of repairing the roof of your block

• Perhaps 11.15% is a reasonable amount to pay - which is a bit more than half what you have been asked to pay

But also...

If you pay, say, £470 instead of £940 - the freeholders will be £470 short. They'll need to get the money from other leaseholders to make up the shortfall.

So they'll have to send new bills to all the other leaseholders (who will probably complain about paying the extra).

So the freeholders have got themselves into a big mess, which will be difficult to sort out.

smoothieee

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

3)Thirdly, as a neighbourly gesture, I am also willing to make a payment of 50%, of the total sum that I have been charged because I am aware that to repair the roof is a mutual goal. Please, I hope this does not conflict your message above, please what's your thoughts?

It starts to get a bit more complex. It seems there are 2 blocks...  Is the same amount of work being done to both blocks?

Assuming it is,

• You have been asked to pay 20% of the cost of repairing the roof of your block

• Perhaps 11.15% is a reasonable amount to pay - which is a bit more than half what you have been asked to pay

But also...

If you pay, say, £470 instead of £940 - the freeholders will be £470 short. They'll need to get the money from other leaseholders to make up the shortfall.

So they'll have to send new bills to all the other leaseholders (who will probably complain about paying the extra).

So the freeholders have got themselves into a big mess, which will be difficult to sort out.

To your questions:

1) It is not to my knowledge that a section 20 was done, no letter was received or spoken on the WhatsApp group.

2) Yes 2 victorian terraces, right next to each other and a mix of work is done on both, I have list a few of them below and live on 17:

1.⁠ ⁠Guttering on no. 15 side

2.⁠ ⁠Area of damp wall on no. 15 side

3.⁠ ⁠Soffit on no. 17 side

4.⁠ ⁠Front wall of building in general  - repointing (17&15)  sills and lintels, general repairs and tidying
5) Water leak on to the external window sills, impacting flat 4 of No 17.

6). Brickwork needs urgent repair for No 15 - now beyond an aesthetic issue, as it is holding back the front garden from falling into the road.

Yes, If I pay £470, they will be short £470 and note that the first time they hassled me into paying that first instalment of £795, I reiterated how this is out of line. I felt ignored and the entire time and also my own neighbours within the same building that knew of the apportionment said nothing. I also discussed it face to face with the guy in the biggest flat within my block and they where like its true, it should be apportioned but yet he and his spouse went on to vote for equal split.

I believe it is in my best interest to make sure that I make the payment of £470 rather than not paying but I am unclear a a point that you '' If the tribunal decides in my favour, you will obviously be required to refund part of my Service Charge - which would leave you with insufficient funds to pay for the roof repairs."  

Is your point a about a refund in reference to the £795 from the previous instalment, I am assuming that this is what you are referring to because that cost was over 11.15%, am I thinking about it correctly?

smoothieee

noitsnotme said:

smoothieee said:

propertyrental said:

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

But the maths is fundamental to your problem! What % the lease requires you to pay (unspecified) and what % you have historically paid, and what % you are now being asked to pay are all relevant to your issue as to whether what you are now being asked to pay is either fair or legal.

You cannot ignore the maths as it is the maths that dictates what you pay.

And if you want serious advice, then providing all the facts is essential. "some variations in the percentage" does not help you get answers.

ThisIsWeird's Qs above would help clarify and hence help you get the advice you seek.

It has become clear that a lot of people are 100 trying to help me and have have brought together as much information, the math has been requested so often and please find below the percentage payment by all flat per service charge and the total budget for the roof repair.

Firstly, note that it is two buildings that are part of the freehold and when we use to be under a management company, I honestly had no idea that the freeholder was one person so when we bought the freehold, we bought it as one building, the buildings are next to each other. In simple language, these cost as treated as the cost from one Household. 

Above each flat is the %, my flat is the one with an arrow on the bottom image and below my flat number is apportionment % for service charge at 11.15%. The work that is being done is across both buildings and the second screenshot is how they've pushed for it to be divided equally.

When the works came up, I largely supported it but I told them I will only abide by apportionment method but the said that a fairer system will be a flat split because everyone benefits from a roof as you can imagine the entire votes really came from the big flat. 

two lots of payments is requested, the first one being, £795 and second £940, both due 12th of June, presumably. 

like I have also clarified this apportionment by % is not specified by my lease, it was historically done by discretion, on the basis of fairness according to the managing agent and neither does the lease say's anything about roof repairs. I have also attached section of the lease.

In summary, I am just unsure whats my best action as the lease does not dictate this, suck up and pay or push for this to be reviewed some sort of legislation and it is worth it, the value of my studio flat is 220K 

Screenshot 1 - Percentage of service across both building (Treated as one pot, one bank account)


Screenshot 2 - Roof repair budget across both buildings




Lease screenshot: does not indicate apportionment

I’m still a little confused.

Is screenshot 1 (for the service charges) the split when the management company was previously involved or is it still valid now that you are all freeholders?  So do you still only pay 11.15% towards the service charges now that the management company has gone?

Are all flats on the ground floor or is it a 2 storey building?

And if it’s more than storey are you on the ground floor or higher?

Yes, I the screenshot is of when the management company has gone, so it replicates the historical format.
They wanted a flat split after we bought the freehold and I pushed for us to adhere to the historical practice being apportionment by square footage used by the management company which conflicts the equal split they now want for the roof repairs. 

eddddy

Is the repair work already underway?

Based on what you've said, the freeholders have made such a big mess of everything, it's difficult to know where to begin.

The freeholders seem to have ignored every relevant law, and ignored your lease - and made up their own set of  unenforceable rules.

When the freeholders are that much "out of control", I suspect it will be difficult to reason with them, and they're unlikely to listen if you try to say "Let me explain the laws to you, which you have ignored".



As just one example...

• It seems they are asking you to pay £795 + £795 + £940 = £2,530 for the works

• But they haven't done a section 20 consultation

• Assuming the work is already being done without a section 20 consultation, a tribunal might say you only have to pay £250, instead of £2,530

To be honest, on that basis, I would simplify my message to the freeholders:

"You have ignored the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985.

You have breached my lease.

Your vote is unenforceable.

You are attempting to overcharge me for the current repairs.

On that basis, I will pay a final payment of £345 (under protest) for the current repairs, to bring my total payment up to £1,935 which represents 11.15% of the total cost.

I will only agree to pay 11.15% of any valid future repair bills for my block.

If you believe that any of my actions are unreasonable, I suggest that we go to a tribunal to settle this."

smoothieee

eddddy said:

Is the repair work already underway?

Based on what you've said, the freeholders have made such a big mess of everything, it's difficult to know where to begin.

The freeholders seem to have ignored every relevant law, and ignored your lease - and made up their own set of  unenforceable rules.

When the freeholders are that much "out of control", I suspect it will be difficult to reason with them, and they're unlikely to listen if you try to say "Let me explain the laws to you, which you have ignored".



As just one example...

• It seems they are asking you to pay £795 + £795 + £940 = £2,530 for the works

• But they haven't done a section 20 consultation

• Assuming the work is already being done without a section 20 consultation, a tribunal might say you only have to pay £250, instead of £2,530

To be honest, on that basis, I would simplify my message to the freeholders:

"You have ignored the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985.

You have breached my lease.

Your vote is unenforceable.

You are attempting to overcharge me for the current repairs.

On that basis, I will pay a final payment of £345 (under protest) for the current repairs, to bring my total payment up to £1,935 which represents 11.15% of the total cost.

I will only agree to pay 11.15% of any valid future repair bills for my block.

If you believe that any of my actions are unreasonable, I suggest that we go to a tribunal to settle this."

I have done two options of the letters you drafted but first, I must clarify that they are not charging me 
£795 + £795 + £940 = £2,530.

It is :

£795.40 + £940 = £1735. (X10 Flats = 17,354)
I have paid the previous 795.40, while reiterating the entire time that prior the next payment of £940 that this should be rectified but every conversation fell on deaf ears. 

Kindly review both options, the only text that have added is the text in bold letters. I plan to send my payment and emails afterwards to 9 of the freeholders. THANK YOU🙏🏿

                                                                                   Letter: Option 1
Dear Freeholders,

 

Until now, my proportion of repairs and maintenance costs for my flat has been 11.15%. Is your decision to change my proportion to 20% based on advice from a Chartered Building Surveyor, or other suitably qualified professional? If so, can you provide me with a copy of their report?

 

You have ignored the Landlord and Tenant Act of 1985. My lease requires that my proportion is fair and reasonable, and you are attempting to overcharge me for the current repairs.

 

The vote that you have cast is unenforceable, and it is a breach of my Lease, it is not binding to me. You cannot override my lease and the law by holding a vote, and if you believe otherwise, feel free to present your vote as evidence at a Tribunal.

 

If you are unable to provide reasonable evidence that 20% is a fair and reasonable proportion, I will most certainly challenge any future Services demand based on a 20% proportion at a Tribunal. 

 

On that basis, I will pay a final payment of £524.05 (under protest) for the current repairs, bringing my total payment up to £1,319.05 which yet again represents over 11.15% of my total cost and If the Tribunal decides in my favour, you will obviously be required to refund my overpayment.

In both 15 and 17, there are flats that are worth two and a half times the price of my apartment. I will only agree to pay 11.15% of any valid future repair bills for my block. If you believe that any of my actions are unreasonable, I suggest that we go to a tribunal to settle this.

 

Yours truly,

EW

                                                                                Letter : Option 2: 

Dear Freeholders,

 

Until now, my proportion of repairs and maintenance costs for my flat has been 11.15%. Is your decision to change my proportion to 20% based on advice from a Chartered Building Surveyor, or other suitably qualified professional? If so, can you provide me with a copy of their report?

 

You have ignored the Landlord and Tenant Act of 1985. My lease requires that my proportion is fair and reasonable, and you are attempting to overcharge me for the current repairs.

You have breached my lease, and your vote is unenforceable. On that basis, I will pay a final payment of £524.05 (under protest) for the current repairs, bringing my total payment up to £1,319.05 which represents over 11.15% of my total cost. If the Tribunal decides in my favour, you will obviously be required to refund my overpayment.

 

In both 15 and 17, there are flats that are worth two and a half times the price of my apartment. I will only agree to pay 11.15% of any valid future repair bills for my block. If you believe that any of my actions are unreasonable, I suggest that we go to a tribunal to settle this.

Yours truly,

 

Yours truly,
EW