Does a freehold Invalidate the terms of a leashold?

smoothieee

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

The biggest problem is the deviation from percentage (in other from words square footage to an Equal split) for the roof repair. I appreciate you are keen to explore the math but I am more concerned what is the best practice at this stage.

Sucking up to take an equal split for the roof repair is probably not the best thing to do as this might repeat itself with other future cost. What authority do I call on for to intercede, I have said to them that I am willing to pay a 50% of what is what has been charged because of the mutual interest of having the roof repaired, pending when I get clarity from a legal source and that committing to the requested full split across all flats is probably not the best thing to do right away because it does impacts the running cost of my small apartment.

eddddy

OK - I guess you're saying that the 11.1% you kept mentioning is incorrect.

(It would be easier to answer your question if you could say what the correct percentage is.)


But the generic answer to your question is:

If you receive a Service Charge bill that you believe is unreasonable (e.g. because of your percentage share), you can challenge it at a tribunal.

You would need to explain to the tribunal why you think the bill is unreasonable.


It might be helpful if you said to the freeholder in writing before they issue the bills "I don't believe that this Service Charge percentage is reasonable, and if you issue a bill using this percentage, I will challenge it at tribunal"

That will give the freeholder a chance to reconsider the percentages (and help your case at tribunal).

ThisIsWeird

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

It's quite difficult to follow what you're saying. Maybe start by giving some basic information:

-  How many flats are there in the block?

-  Up until now, what percentage of the Service Charge have you been paying?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)

-  What percentage of the Service Charge have you been asked to pay in the future?
(Are you happy with that percentage, or are you saying you want to challenge it?)


And what percentage of the service charge do you think you should be paying? (And why?)

9 flats are in the block.

11.1 %, we use to be leaseholder and we are now the freeholders after unresolved issues with the management company but, while we where using the managing company, service charged / all budget was apportioned and mine was 11%.

Since we now have the freehold, the bigger flats, 6 of them bigger than mine, all different sizes but mine is the smaller are pushing aggressively that we should split cost equally. My lease doesn't specifically say 11.1 Percent but according to conversations with the previous management company they said while my lease does not say 11.1 % thats they have used the discretion of the apportionment method as it as more equitable than an equal split.

we currently have a roof project ongoing at 16k and they want this split accross all 9 flats equally which wasn't what I was used to as per previous management company and it worth noting that at the moment we no longer have a managing agency. 

My thought has always been that my percentage of the service charge will remain 11.1 % but they are not asking for an equal split, this is now my situation and I don't fully know where to start from, is this clearer?

Please confirm:
1) there are 9 flats?
2) 6 are larger than yours? In what way - just on footprint, or do some have more rooms, especially bedrooms?
3) the remaining 2 are what, smaller than yours, or the same size?
4) your original proportion was 11.1% ?
5) this original %-age split was based on footprint? So the 6 larger flats paid a higher percentage than 11.1, and the other two paid what?
6) what %-age split are they now asking for? And on what basis?
You may think you have answered all these Q's, but your situation really isn't clear.

ThisIsWeird

General Q: On the maintenance 'percentage split' issue in blocks on differently-sized flats, I assume the 'footprint' method of allocation is quite common - even usual?
And it would be considered generally fair for at least a couple of reasons; the first being that there's just more physical property there to maintain, and the other being that the more expensive properties would likely have more affluent owners?

noitsnotme

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

The biggest problem is the deviation from percentage (in other from words square footage to an Equal split) for the roof repair. I appreciate you are keen to explore the math but I am more concerned what is the best practice at this stage.

Sucking up to take an equal split for the roof repair is probably not the best thing to do as this might repeat itself with other future cost. What authority do I call on for to intercede, I have said to them that I am willing to pay a 50% of what is what has been charged because of the mutual interest of having the roof repaired, pending when I get clarity from a legal source and that committing to the requested full split across all flats is probably not the best thing to do right away because it does impacts the running cost of my small apartment.

 How much are you being asked to contribute towards the £16k roof bill?

Is the original 11.1% that you were paying when the management company were in charge, correct?

propertyrental

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

But the maths is fundamental to your problem! What % the lease requires you to pay (unspecified) and what % you have historically paid, and what % you are now being asked to pay are all relevant to your issue as to whether what you are now being asked to pay is either fair or legal.

You cannot ignore the maths as it is the maths that dictates what you pay.

And if you want serious advice, then providing all the facts is essential. "some variations in the percentage" does not help you get answers.

ThisIsWeird's Qs above would help clarify and hence help you get the advice you seek.

Gentoo365

And it would be considered generally fair for at least a couple of reasons; the first being that there's just more physical property there to maintain, and the other being that the more expensive properties would likely have more affluent owners?

Larger flats are generally worth more so the 'value' of any maintenance is more.

But yes in general the idea is that the more of the 'building' you are leasing, the more you pay. 

My personal view is that 'fair' is based on the amounts being as people agreed to when they bought the lease, if it isn't stated then 'fair' is what is 'usual' in similar properties, as this would be what a person reasonably expected. 

I am sure there is actual case law on this (or tribunal decisions) as it must come up a lot.

In this specific case, I like others don't understand the issue as it isn't clear why 'equal share' is more than what would have been paid anyway (if it was 9 flats and this one was paying 11.1% or thereabouts). 

smoothieee

propertyrental said:

smoothieee said:

eddddy said:

smoothieee said:

I'm so sorry if have confused you.

11.1 was my percentage, the rest of it was split in a different percentage to their respective flat.

I don't know each of their % but i know mine to be 11.1 and across the entire flats within the building 11.1 % was the lowest (mine) and the highest is two and half times 11.1 %

That's impossible. The maths doesn't work.

The numbers have to add up to 100%. 


Here's an example of how the numbers could add up to 100%

Flat 1 - 11.1%
Flat 2 - 11.1%
Flat 3 - 11.1%
Flat 4 - 11.1%
Flat 5 - 11.1%
Flat 6 - 11.1%
Flat 7 - 11.1%
Flat 8 - 11.1%
Flat 9 - 11.1%

Total - 100%


If, as you suggest, one of the flats pays 27% - the total would be more than 100%

You are right, my presentation of the math might be off but there are some variations in the percentage and I highly suggest that you do not bother about the Maths.

But the maths is fundamental to your problem! What % the lease requires you to pay (unspecified) and what % you have historically paid, and what % you are now being asked to pay are all relevant to your issue as to whether what you are now being asked to pay is either fair or legal.

You cannot ignore the maths as it is the maths that dictates what you pay.

And if you want serious advice, then providing all the facts is essential. "some variations in the percentage" does not help you get answers.

ThisIsWeird's Qs above would help clarify and hence help you get the advice you seek.

It has become clear that a lot of people are 100 trying to help me and have have brought together as much information, the math has been requested so often and please find below the percentage payment by all flat per service charge and the total budget for the roof repair.

Firstly, note that it is two buildings that are part of the freehold and when we use to be under a management company, I honestly had no idea that the freeholder was one person so when we bought the freehold, we bought it as one building, the buildings are next to each other. In simple language, these cost as treated as the cost from one Household. 

Above each flat is the %, my flat is the one with an arrow on the bottom image and below my flat number is apportionment % for service charge at 11.15%. The work that is being done is across both buildings and the second screenshot is how they've pushed for it to be divided equally.

When the works came up, I largely supported it but I told them I will only abide by apportionment method but the said that a fairer system will be a flat split because everyone benefits from a roof as you can imagine the entire votes really came from the big flat. 

two lots of payments is requested, the first one being, £795 and second £940, both due 12th of June, presumably. 

like I have also clarified this apportionment by % is not specified by my lease, it was historically done by discretion, on the basis of fairness according to the managing agent and neither does the lease say's anything about roof repairs. I have also attached section of the lease.

In summary, I am just unsure whats my best action as the lease does not dictate this, suck up and pay or push for this to be reviewed some sort of legislation and it is worth it, the value of my studio flat is 220K 

Screenshot 1 - Percentage of service across both building (Treated as one pot, one bank account)


Screenshot 2 - Roof repair budget across both buildings




Lease screenshot: does not indicate apportionment

propertyrental

This bares very little similarity to what we have previously been told!

smoothieee

propertyrental said:

This bares very little similarity to what we have previously been told!

this is why I have brought all the facts, there has been a faire amount of miscommunication. there is 3 attachments here, percentages of other flats, I also included current roof budget, did you see those info above?