Diesel Scrappage Scheme

UnkownUser2024

Mildly_Miffed said:

UnkownUser2024 said:

The argument which won them the case ultimately was that in the Judges opinion, the car was not classed as a deposit under the diesel scrappage scheme, rather part of a negotiation deal in which it could be used to create a discount against a new car. 

He was right, though.

There was no government scrappage scheme in 2018. All it was was manufacturers offering substantial discounts on new cars in return for a PX'd old one.

You say you want somebody to find the government's wording... it never existed.

It was quite literally called the diesel scrappage scheme, trade in your old diesel car for a substantial discount on a new car.... 

am-online.com/news/car-manufacturer-news/2017/09/01/audi-launches-2-000-8-000-diesel-scrappage-scheme

In any event, let's go with your logic then. There was no diesel scrappage scheme, so I part exchanged my diesel car in for £7,000. Then it was classed as a deposit, meaning I paid more than a third of the agreement and the claimant breached S90 of the CCA1974 therefore I'm entitled to all sums paid under the agreement

Phoenix72

UnkownUser2024 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

UnkownUser2024 said:

The argument which won them the case ultimately was that in the Judges opinion, the car was not classed as a deposit under the diesel scrappage scheme, rather part of a negotiation deal in which it could be used to create a discount against a new car. 

He was right, though.

There was no government scrappage scheme in 2018. All it was was manufacturers offering substantial discounts on new cars in return for a PX'd old one.

You say you want somebody to find the government's wording... it never existed.

It was quite literally called the diesel scrappage scheme, trade in your old diesel car for a substantial discount on a new car.... 

am-online.com/news/car-manufacturer-news/2017/09/01/audi-launches-2-000-8-000-diesel-scrappage-scheme

In any event, let's go with your logic then. There was no diesel scrappage scheme, so I part exchanged my diesel car in for £7,000. Then it was classed as a deposit, meaning I paid more than a third of the agreement and the claimant breached S90 of the CCA1974 therefore I'm entitled to all sums paid under the agreement

But there was no official goverment scrappage scheme - that was the point Mildly was making.

There were various dealers offering there own version to generate business. Looking at the press articles at the time this offer was a fixed discount based on model purchased. Your argument is that this discount is a deposit, the court disagreed. It's not us you have to convince but stating your version as fact isn't going to help your case.

400ixl

For it to be classed as a deposit, does the money have to come fully from the purchaser?

For example, if the manufacturer is offering a contribution if you take finance, is that discount classed as a deposit?

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. Your link does not mention deposit anywhere, just contribution which suggests it is seen more like the manufacturer contribution rather than a deposit.

No idea either way but I can see why there could be some debate.

UnkownUser2024

400ixl said:

For it to be classed as a deposit, does the money have to come fully from the purchaser?

For example, if the manufacturer is offering a contribution if you take finance, is that discount classed as a deposit?

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. Your link does not mention deposit anywhere, just contribution which suggests it is seen more like the manufacturer contribution rather than a deposit.

No idea either way but I can see why there could be some debate.

I honestly don't know, but this is a helpful explanation and one which I am desperately trying to get to the bottom of. 

My point is, the Judge cannot simply accept that the part exchange was part of the HP agreement without accepting by virtue that it would then be a deposit as per the definition laid out in legislation. It is either accepted or it isn't and this for me is where the grey area lies. 

It was believed by the Judge that there were almost two separate contracts in a sense, between myself and the dealership and then between the dealership and the Claimant (Audi Financial Services) however that simply isn't the case. Every dealership acts as a negotiator on behalf of the Finance Company. Otherwise we are literally rewriting the history of HP agreements here

UnkownUser2024

400ixl said:

For it to be classed as a deposit, does the money have to come fully from the purchaser?

For example, if the manufacturer is offering a contribution if you take finance, is that discount classed as a deposit?

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. Your link does not mention deposit anywhere, just contribution which suggests it is seen more like the manufacturer contribution rather than a deposit.

No idea either way but I can see why there could be some debate.

Taken from S189 of the CCA 1974, to try and clear things up a little;

• “deposit” means ...any sum payable by a debtor or hirer by way of deposit or down-payment, or credited or to be credited to him on account of any deposit or down-payment, whether the sum is to be or has been paid to the creditor or owner or any other person, or is to be or has been discharged by a payment of money or a transfer or delivery of goods or by any other means

Phoenix72

UnkownUser2024 said:

400ixl said:

For it to be classed as a deposit, does the money have to come fully from the purchaser?

For example, if the manufacturer is offering a contribution if you take finance, is that discount classed as a deposit?

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. Your link does not mention deposit anywhere, just contribution which suggests it is seen more like the manufacturer contribution rather than a deposit.

No idea either way but I can see why there could be some debate.

Taken from S189 of the CCA 1974, to try and clear things up a little;

• “deposit” means ...any sum payable by a debtor or hirer by way of deposit or down-payment, or credited or to be credited to him on account of any deposit or down-payment, whether the sum is to be or has been paid to the creditor or owner or any other person, or is to be or has been discharged by a payment of money or a transfer or delivery of goods or by any other means

Not sure that helps your case. You got a discount probably in excess of the scrapped cars worth. But I am not legally qualified.

How was the final price broken down in the finance agreement 

UnkownUser2024

Phoenix72 said:

UnkownUser2024 said:

400ixl said:

For it to be classed as a deposit, does the money have to come fully from the purchaser?

For example, if the manufacturer is offering a contribution if you take finance, is that discount classed as a deposit?

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. Your link does not mention deposit anywhere, just contribution which suggests it is seen more like the manufacturer contribution rather than a deposit.

No idea either way but I can see why there could be some debate.

Taken from S189 of the CCA 1974, to try and clear things up a little;

• “deposit” means ...any sum payable by a debtor or hirer by way of deposit or down-payment, or credited or to be credited to him on account of any deposit or down-payment, whether the sum is to be or has been paid to the creditor or owner or any other person, or is to be or has been discharged by a payment of money or a transfer or delivery of goods or by any other means

Not sure that helps your case. You got a discount probably in excess of the scrapped cars worth. But I am not legally qualified.

How was the final price broken down in the finance agreement 

It was broken down as the total RRP minus options, a dealer discount and a manufacturer's contribution (diesel scrappage)
I also paid £1,000 cash deposit and then £599 was taken out of this to pay for GAP insurance.
Leaving £401 as the advance payment.

My second argument was that the agreement was improperly executed, due to the fact that the diesel scrappage contribution should have been factored into the total payable amount of the agreement. This is defined as the following;

the sum of the total amount of credit and the total charge for credit payable under the agreement as well as any advance payment

So in my eyes, taking into account the total deposit of £8,000 plus the repayments I had made (20x £500 per month plus 12 token payments of £1) I had paid a total of £18,012 into an agreement of circa £42,000

However the Claimant claims that I had only paid around £10,403 into a £39,000 agreement and so had not reached the thirds threshold 

Phoenix72

I would disagree you paid a deposit of £8,000 and more importantly the Court did so I'll leave it at that.

jimjames

400ixl said:

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. 

As per the link above, this was NOT a government scheme so there was no money from the government.

UnkownUser2024 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

UnkownUser2024 said:

The argument which won them the case ultimately was that in the Judges opinion, the car was not classed as a deposit under the diesel scrappage scheme, rather part of a negotiation deal in which it could be used to create a discount against a new car. 

He was right, though.

There was no government scrappage scheme in 2018. All it was was manufacturers offering substantial discounts on new cars in return for a PX'd old one.

You say you want somebody to find the government's wording... it never existed.

am-online.com/news/car-manufacturer-news/2017/09/01/audi-launches-2-000-8-000-diesel-scrappage-scheme

The clue is that you posted an Audi webpage not a UK government one. If there was no government scheme then it was purely an Audi one to drum up sales.

UnkownUser2024

jimjames said:

400ixl said:

With the diesel scrappage scheme you were not placing the money with the dealer, the government was. So you were trading in your car for a government funded contribution. 

As per the link above, this was NOT a government scheme so there was no money from the government.

UnkownUser2024 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

UnkownUser2024 said:

The argument which won them the case ultimately was that in the Judges opinion, the car was not classed as a deposit under the diesel scrappage scheme, rather part of a negotiation deal in which it could be used to create a discount against a new car. 

He was right, though.

There was no government scrappage scheme in 2018. All it was was manufacturers offering substantial discounts on new cars in return for a PX'd old one.

You say you want somebody to find the government's wording... it never existed.

am-online.com/news/car-manufacturer-news/2017/09/01/audi-launches-2-000-8-000-diesel-scrappage-scheme

The clue is that you posted an Audi webpage not a UK government one. If there was no government scheme then it was purely an Audi one to drum up sales.

Okay so as I understand that, the dealer negotiated a discount with the finance supplier, of a further £7,000, by way of taking my car as a (deposit/part exchange/contribution)?
So by some form of the transfer of my vehicle, a discount was added to my agreement. 

In which case why would this not constitute as a deposit? ie why was my car required, they could have just credited a further £7,000 from the value of the new vehicle