planning permission for heat pump refused

mikeh1978

Hi all,

Any advice appreciated. Here's a potted summary
- Live in a detached bungalow with space down the side of the house.
- Through Octopus, heat pump would be installed in that space. It's approx 1m from the neighbours' boundary and prob around 2m from their nearest window. 
- Neighbours (who we know) are fine with the idea, not worried about anything including the heat pump noise
- We also live on a main road which is proper noisy (unsure if that's relevant or not)!

I know nothing about planning permission ,first time I've done this.

The council rejection says "The proposed development fails to meet the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) criteria of 42dB and as such is likely to cause levels of noise that could adversely affect the neighbouring amenities."

According to the blurb from Octopus, the heat pump to be installed is Daikin Altherma 3 M, and googling it,  
"In standard sound mode, the unit produces a sound pressure of 38 dBA at 3 metres. The low sound mode reduces the pressure even further by 3 dB(A) at 3 metres to reach 35 dB(A), representing a real reduction of half the sound level."

So, any chance of an appeal being successful? If so, what would need to change or be revised? Can I go back to the council (I have the officer's email address) to ask questions? 

Like I say, complete noob in this area.
So any advice very much appreciated!

Reed_Richards

I think your heat pump will be too close to your neighbours house and/or the boundary.  Even if your current neighbours would not object, one day they might sell and be replaced by new neighbours who would.  The planning authority must have taken that into account.  You would think that a busy road nearby should make a difference but I don't think it does. 

I doubt that an appeal would succeed; what grounds do you have?  You might conceivably install a sound baffle but you would have to convince the planning authority that it would work.  I think if you want the heat pump, you are going to have to site it somewhere else.    

michaels

Seems to be some calcs online.  Need to know how loud the unit is at the unit, how many walls it is against and distance to 1m outside window of nearest habitable room (ie not a kitchen or bathroom).  Then there is some adjustment factor....

matt_drummer

The sound output of a Daikin Altherma 3 is stated in the brochure as being 62dB and that is all that matters.

i have had two of them, it is all that matters.

My heat pump was planned to be 12 metres from a neighbours window and failed the MCS noise test by 0.5 dB.

The council rejected it immediately on the grounds that it exceeded the MCS noise limit even though they made me apply for planning consent before giving a ruling.

The calculations can be found n MCS 020

I also live on a busy road, a very busy road but it makes no difference, the council were adamant that the noise at night didn't exceed 35dB, I wish!


Neither of my heat pumps made or make 62dB, they are virtually silent but all that matters is the noise level quoted in the brochure.

My heat pump is on the front of the house, the council are happy with that.

You will need to find a location for the heat pump that satisfies the council even though you may not like it.

My neighbours didn't object but the council didn't care, they say that future occupants have to be considered.

It's a bit of a joke and impossible to argue with.

it is what it is though and you will have to find a way to deal with it or not have a heat pump.

I started a big thread on it.

Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required! - Page 20 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

michaels

Don't see how you could be over 42db at 12m regardless of Q factor based on MCS20?

Edit, read your thread, the high Q and the noisyish heat pump are the problem - a 60db (or even 61db) one and you would have passed?

matt_drummer

Also,

Quiet Mode cannot be taken into consideration.

And 2 metres from a neighbour is too close, it is not reasonable at all.

No council is ever going to let you do that, and nor should they in my opinion.

matt_drummer

michaels said:

Don't see how you could be over 42db at 12m regardless of Q factor based on MCS20?

Well, it is, 42.5dB which is rounded up to 43dB

62dB heat pump from the brochure and three reflective surfaces.

The ground and two walls.

I could have put it high up on the wall and passed but Octopus wouldn't install off the ground.

Octopus only install Daikin and they are all quoted at 62dB even if they aren't in reality.

It's true and I had no choice, it failed.

I had to put it on the front of the house which the council were very helpful with. They were very happy with it on the front facing the road and the EP officer spent all weekend on the plans and the noise calculations.

Now I am bulletproof! 

matt_drummer

michaels said:

Don't see how you could be over 42db at 12m regardless of Q factor based on MCS20?

Edit, read your thread, the high Q and the noisyish heat pump are the problem - a 60db (or even 61db) one and you would have passed?

Yes, a Vaillant would have passed, anything 60dB or less would have passed the MCS noise test.

The problem was Daikin and Octopus, the noise Daikin quote and Octopus only fitting Daikin.

Daikin quote the same noise for my 8kW as they did for the 9kW.

The 9kW is twice the size and much noisier.

The 9kW was never 62dB and my replacement 8kW is barely audible.

But, as I said, all that matters is what is quoted in the brochure, it is all you can use in the MCS calculation.

mikeh1978

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

michaels

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

Google the MCS 20 that Matt mentions above - it is a fairly straight-forward calc, all you need to know is the DB rating of the heat pump, how many walls it will be close to and the distance in meters to the point 1m outside the nearest 'habitable room' window.

matt_drummer

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

The response you had from your council is similar to mine.

Planning was refused because you would exceed the 42dB MCS limit but you only needed to apply because you exceeded the MCS limit of 42dB!

You need to find a heat pump and/or a location that gives a result of 42dB or less so that it becomes permitted development.

What was the calculated noise level using MCS20?

The EP officer at my council was very helpful in finding and assisting with other locations. Trying to reason with any of them to allow my original proposed location was a waste of time.

They didn't even understand my annoyance at having to apply for planning permission. They could have just told me at the outset not to bother if I exceeded the MCS noise limit as they knew they would reject it. They maintain that I needed to apply as they consider each case on its merits, they don't!

My EP officer isn't even happy with the MCS limit, he feels that the noise limit should be 35dB, basically silent. He did calculations and plans for my current location and my heat pump is less than 35dB at any neighbours property now so he is very happy.