planning permission for heat pump refused

mikeh1978

Thanks all, really appreciate the input.
I will absorb and try and do some working-things-out over the weekend. No doubt will be back here with further questions in due course!

michaels

matt_drummer said:

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

The response you had from your council is similar to mine.

Planning was refused because you would exceed the 42dB MCS limit but you only needed to apply because you exceeded the MCS limit of 42dB!

You need to find a heat pump and/or a location that gives a result of 42dB or less so that it becomes permitted development.

What was the calculated noise level using MCS20?

The EP officer at my council was very helpful in finding and assisting with other locations. Trying to reason with any of them to allow my original proposed location was a waste of time.

They didn't even understand my annoyance at having to apply for planning permission. They could have just told me at the outset not to bother if I exceeded the MCS noise limit as they knew they would reject it. They maintain that I needed to apply as they consider each case on its merits, they don't!

My EP officer isn't even happy with the MCS limit, he feels that the noise limit should be 35dB, basically silent. He did calculations and plans for my current location and my heat pump is less than 35dB at any neighbours property now so he is very happy.

Under the MCS20 calculation isn't it impossible to be below 40db?!

matt_drummer

michaels said:

matt_drummer said:

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

The response you had from your council is similar to mine.

Planning was refused because you would exceed the 42dB MCS limit but you only needed to apply because you exceeded the MCS limit of 42dB!

You need to find a heat pump and/or a location that gives a result of 42dB or less so that it becomes permitted development.

What was the calculated noise level using MCS20?

The EP officer at my council was very helpful in finding and assisting with other locations. Trying to reason with any of them to allow my original proposed location was a waste of time.

They didn't even understand my annoyance at having to apply for planning permission. They could have just told me at the outset not to bother if I exceeded the MCS noise limit as they knew they would reject it. They maintain that I needed to apply as they consider each case on its merits, they don't!

My EP officer isn't even happy with the MCS limit, he feels that the noise limit should be 35dB, basically silent. He did calculations and plans for my current location and my heat pump is less than 35dB at any neighbours property now so he is very happy.

Under the MCS20 calculation isn't it impossible to be below 40db?!

I think it is something like that, yes. It's because of the background noise they incorporate into the calculation if I remember correctly.

michaels

matt_drummer said:

michaels said:

matt_drummer said:

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

The response you had from your council is similar to mine.

Planning was refused because you would exceed the 42dB MCS limit but you only needed to apply because you exceeded the MCS limit of 42dB!

You need to find a heat pump and/or a location that gives a result of 42dB or less so that it becomes permitted development.

What was the calculated noise level using MCS20?

The EP officer at my council was very helpful in finding and assisting with other locations. Trying to reason with any of them to allow my original proposed location was a waste of time.

They didn't even understand my annoyance at having to apply for planning permission. They could have just told me at the outset not to bother if I exceeded the MCS noise limit as they knew they would reject it. They maintain that I needed to apply as they consider each case on its merits, they don't!

My EP officer isn't even happy with the MCS limit, he feels that the noise limit should be 35dB, basically silent. He did calculations and plans for my current location and my heat pump is less than 35dB at any neighbours property now so he is very happy.

Under the MCS20 calculation isn't it impossible to be below 40db?!

I think it is something like that, yes. It's because of the background noise they incorporate into the calculation if I remember correctly.

I see, you mean the actual sound pressure from the heat pump at the relevant points on the neighbouring properties was 35db or less rather than the MCS calculation.

matt_drummer

michaels said:

matt_drummer said:

michaels said:

matt_drummer said:

mikeh1978 said:

Thanks for the replies folks.

So potentially another brand of heat pump, installed by someone else other than Octopus, might pass the noise test?
 
if so, to ask a very basic question, how might I know whether it's quiet enough or not to hit the 42db limit? What specific db number / metrics should I be looking for in the heat pump blurb? I'd rather have some level of confidence in advance of applying again / appealing. 

Are the council helpful if you speak to them directly? Or do they typically just wave a 'permission refused' flag in your face and shut the door? 

The response you had from your council is similar to mine.

Planning was refused because you would exceed the 42dB MCS limit but you only needed to apply because you exceeded the MCS limit of 42dB!

You need to find a heat pump and/or a location that gives a result of 42dB or less so that it becomes permitted development.

What was the calculated noise level using MCS20?

The EP officer at my council was very helpful in finding and assisting with other locations. Trying to reason with any of them to allow my original proposed location was a waste of time.

They didn't even understand my annoyance at having to apply for planning permission. They could have just told me at the outset not to bother if I exceeded the MCS noise limit as they knew they would reject it. They maintain that I needed to apply as they consider each case on its merits, they don't!

My EP officer isn't even happy with the MCS limit, he feels that the noise limit should be 35dB, basically silent. He did calculations and plans for my current location and my heat pump is less than 35dB at any neighbours property now so he is very happy.

Under the MCS20 calculation isn't it impossible to be below 40db?!

I think it is something like that, yes. It's because of the background noise they incorporate into the calculation if I remember correctly.

I see, you mean the actual sound pressure from the heat pump at the relevant points on the neighbouring properties was 35db or less rather than the MCS calculation.

Yes, it was not an MCS led calculation, it was actual based on the heat pump being 62dB, which it isn't, so it is silent for all of my neighbours effectively because it is quieter at their properties than the ambient noise level at the quietest time of the day.

mikeh1978

So, see attached image for the heat pump calculations. 
And apologies for the basic natures of these questions but is it the 45 number that I should be looking at here. And thus, it's not too far away from the threshold of 42? 

Also, this is what the Octopus guy responded with. Any merit in the 'any kind of fence' option or the soundproofing fence like the one he recommends? Would an appeal to the council have a chance of success by doing this? 

"Firstly, any form of fencing would be viable so long as it does not restrict the air flow of the heat pump itself, please find attached the spacing that would be required around the appliance.

If however, you were looking for a more substantial acoustic barrier for the heat pump there is also soundproofing fencing available which I can provide a link for:

https://www.ikoustic.co.uk/products/acoustic-fences/noistop-essential-acoustic-fencing/
This would bring down the sound level significantly however we would request this to be installed prior to the heat pump installation as this would be on the terms of the approval for planning permission and as a pre-installation obligation. "

Netexporter

And apologies for the basic natures of these questions but is it the 45 number that I should be looking at here. And thus, it's not too far away from the threshold of 42?

Decibels are a logarithmic scale, so a difference of 3 may be much more audible than it appears.

matt_drummer

Octopus told me that some councils were approving at 9dB over the limit.

But from what you have said, yours failed because it exceeded the limit of 42dB.

I suspect, like my council, they will not approve anything over 42dB.

In all likely hood, no other heat pump would pass either.

A fence panel would not constitute an acoustic barrier for my council, it needs to be substantial, either bricks/blocks or construction type timber.

My opinion, an appeal would be a waste of time.

In any case, only 3 metres from a neighbour is asking for trouble down the line should new neighbours move in.

It's too close.

It would appear that they have also used the wrong sound output for a Daikin heat pump.

Unless they have changed they are all 62dB, not 60dB

michaels

If you can choose heat pump then there are quieter ones - for example these are 51/56

https://www.viessmann.co.uk/content/dam/public-brands/gb/products/heat-pump/vitocal-151-a/Vitocal 150-A_151-A brochure.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Vitocal 150-A_151-A brochure.pdf

I assume Octopus don't let you just pay an 'upgrade fee' to have a more expensive heat pump?

Basically the heat pump needs to produce 38db or less at the measurement point - for a 62db heat pump that means somewhere 8, 10 or 15m from the measurement point with 1, 2 or 3 reflective surfaces.  With a 56db HP this falls to 4, 5 or 8m.  51DB and it is only 2, 3 or 4m

Reed_Richards

Surely Octopus were pushing their luck by suggesting you site the heat pump so close to your neighbours?  They need to respond with an alternative placement idea.