Very pushy replacement energy meter calls

mmmmikey

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

Marvel1 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

prowla said:

powerful_Rogue said:

I would just double the standing charge and electric/gas rate for those that refuse a smart meter with no genuine reason.

I'm sure something like this will happen in the future, sadly it probably won't be as extreme as i'd like it to be.

Why on earth would you want to do that and what would you define as a "genuine reason"?

Plus, what would the "extreme" you'd like it to be - hanging?

Can't be fitted due to no fault of the occupier (EG: Spacing, no signal etc)

Extreme is what I said - Double standing charge and double unit rate for electric/gas.

As to why? Because the tin foil hat brigade irritate me!

What should my parents get then, when this email came through?!

Your April Power Move update.

Hi (Name)

During April your smart meter failed to send us readings at certain times, so we couldn’t see the full picture of your electricity use.

Unfortunately this means you won’t receive a Power Move credit this month.

Seems a bit tough, but it's clear from the OVO FAQs that if the meter doesn't communicate well enough then you can't participate. If your parents have a working smart meter but can't send out the data because of network issues then there's not much OVO or any other supplier can do about it other than make representation to the responsible party - presumably either the DCC or a comms provider. 

Half of me thinks that people who have cooperated fully with the smart meter rollout but are unable to benefit because of where they live should be offered some kind of compensatory payment or maybe a special discounted tariff. But who would pay for that? It would logically be added to the standing charges but that wouldn't be popular.

So maybe it's just a question of accepting that different places have different benefits and drawbacks. Some places can't get a decent TV signal, some places have busy roads, some places are more expensive than others and some you can't get a working smart meter......

Aye, so when you have companies wanting to force people on to smart meters, but they don't provide any guarantee that they will work.

In other words, the alleged 20-30% saving is just a load ot hot air!

There are also stories of people changing supplier and their smart meters not working.

The saving is actually is about 100% in my case because my smart meter measures both import and export from my solar panels. The combined effect of an increased export tariff and lower import costs has the effect of wiping out my bill altogether. 

Not everyone has solar panels of course, but anyone with a smart meter can access Octopus Agile, for example, and if you are prepared to open your mind and spend a few minutes reading the Octopus Agile thread on this forum you'll see dozens of examples of the kind of savings people are making. If you would prefer to avoid a time of use tariff you could switch to Tracker, and again if you're prepared to open your mind and look  at the Tracker thread you'll see dozens of examples of folks making big savings.

The savings to be made are very real, which is a fact that many contributors to this forum can attest to.

MeteredOut

My smart meter has allowed me to have an average electricity price at under 15p/kWh since I moved onto the EV tariff with Octopus in January.

If that is hot air, then let the warm winds blow! 

EssexHebridean

The stories about meters not staying smart on switching relate to the old style SMETS1 meters, but are no longer even true for an awful lot (I think by now, the majority, in fact) of those. The meters being fitted now - and indeed for a good few years now - are SMETS2 though, and so weren’t affected by that issue.  It doesn’t take a lot of initiative to simply check out things like that - and it’s probably better to get the facts straight rather than continuing to perpetuate myths, particularly if your stance is that you are not someone with an agenda of fearmongering. 

prowla

ecraig said:

prowla said:

Aye, so when you have companies wanting to force people on to smart meters, but they don't provide any guarantee that they will work.

In other words, the alleged 20-30% saving is just a load ot hot air!

There are also stories of people changing supplier and their smart meters not working.

It’s a bit over the top to offer a guarantee that anything will work. You don’t even get this if you go for a medical operation. This is quite a basic and simple concept, you know. 
Usually consumers are offered a guarantee that something will be fixed within a specific period of time depending on the product or service, and perhaps length of ownership. There are many stories on the consumer rights board of this forum on the subject for many types of product and service. 
If a smart meter does work, the energy company will arrange for a replacement to be fitted. Again, simple concept and there have been many stories of a positive outcome on this very forum.

A customer with a smart meter on the octopus tracker tariff is paying approx 30% less than someone on the standard variable rate. Again, many stories on this forum about the price success people are achieving.

if you go on the prowl and read this forum a bit more you’ll find anecdotal evidence for yourself. 

My point is that anecdotal comments in an online forum about a possible point-in-time saving is not a compelling argument though...

The Octopus tracker site says:

• "Over the warmer months, prices tend to be lower, and we expect them to increase – likely double – when the heating comes on and the sun starts setting earlier." and.
• "Tracker features Price Cap Protect, which caps the maximum daily price at 100p / kWh for electricity and 30p / kWh for gas – keep in mind that's a lot higher than the Ofgem Energy Price Cap, so if you can't afford prices to increase further, you're probably better off sticking with a protected tariff such as Flexible Octopus.".
  

If they double, is that still going to give that 20-30% saving?

You're effectively playing the stock markets for your energy supplies, except in this case you want the value to go down instead of up.

To paraphrase the common saying "Beware that your price may go up as well as down".

On the point of anecdotal comments in the fora, there are also ones highlighting issues getting faulty smart meters repaired and that it is not uncommon for them to fail to transmit data, in which case the suppliers say not their problem and you're not in the smart club.

So, whilst there are evangelists who have taken it upon themselves to promote smart meters, they may not be the panacea which is being put forward.

mmmmikey said:

prowla said:

BarelySentientAI said:

prowla said:

If you offer them incentives and explain the benefits then they may see the light.

They've been explaining the benefits for years, and are met by conspiracy theories, wilful ignorance or just ignored.

Isn't a 20-30% saving on your energy bills by using a smart tariff incentive enough?

Where does that 20-30% figure come from?
Is it a guaranteed 20-30% for everyhousehold who agrees to have a smart meter, or a typical saving for a typical family, etc.?

mmmmikey said:

BarelySentientAI said:

prowla said:

If you offer them incentives and explain the benefits then they may see the light.

They've been explaining the benefits for years, and are met by conspiracy theories, wilful ignorance or just ignored.

Isn't a 20-30% saving on your energy bills by using a smart tariff incentive enough?

I agree but do you think "they" have been doing a good enough job of explaining it? 

The TV ads with gaz and leccy and more recently Albert Einstein have been focused on the benefits of having an IHD so you can see what you're using and change your habits etc. so you can use less. There's been very little publicity that I've been aware of around the benefits of smart tarriffs. 

And it does seem to me that a significant proportion of the objections we see now are based on sheer bloody-mindedness - i.e. a mindset that says "I don't care how much I'd benefit from having a smart meter, nobody's telling me what to do". Is this sensible and the way it should be? IMHO no. But is it the way it is? Almost certainly, yes.

Then there are the views based on either misunderstandings or out of date information. I'd like to think the tide is turning on this one, but given the amount of spin you read in the media, and even the main moneysavingexpert site, it's hardly surprising. For example, if you bought a 5G phone and couldn't use it because there's no signal in your area, you wouldn't describe the 'phone as faulty.  And if your 'phone needed replacing anyway, you might well chose to buy a 5G model on the grounds it's much the same price and even if you can't use it straight away you'll be ready when there is a signal. But if a smart meter can't get a signal it's described as faulty which creates a completely misleading impression in my view.

@prowla - in response to one of the points you make about the link between smart meters and green energy....

Much of the green energy that is generated is solar or wind. The problem with this is that there's very little control about the timing of supply - you get solar energy when the sun shines and wind energy when the wind blows. This creates a situation where there are times of surplus supply and prices are dirt cheap. Smart meters allow consumers to take advantage of this by allowing them to buy this cheap energy, and that is where lots of forumites are making huge savings on their bills. This demand management is one of the big advantages of smart meters - i.e. you can use the smart meters to give consumers financial incentives to use electricity when it's cheaper. Even if you're not one of the consumers that chooses to save money by shifting demand, you still benefit because the reduced demand at peak times helps control prices there.

My previous (Pure Planet) and current (Octopus) energy suppliers say that I'm on a green tariff.

That's great, but doesn't change anything about what I said. 

The final paragraph which you diected at me says:

@prowla - in response to one of the points you make about the link between smart meters and green energy....

Much of the green energy that is generated is solar or wind. The problem with this is that there's very little control about the timing of supply - you get solar energy when the sun shines and wind energy when the wind blows. This creates a situation where there are times of surplus supply and prices are dirt cheap. Smart meters allow consumers to take advantage of this by allowing them to buy this cheap energy, and that is where lots of forumites are making huge savings on their bills. This demand management is one of the big advantages of smart meters - i.e. you can use the smart meters to give consumers financial incentives to use electricity when it's cheaper. Even if you're not one of the consumers that chooses to save money by shifting demand, you still benefit because the reduced demand at peak times helps control prices there.

I responded that I'm on a green tariff; since I've not got a smart meter, there is therefore no link between smart meters and green energy.

You also make an assertion that people are making "huge" savings; now, I guess that depends upon your definition of the word, but I woudn't say £30 a month is particulalrly "huge".

Whilst what you say about how solar/wind energy is generated is fact, it is not relevant to the roll-out of smart meters, nor to the sales techniques used by the companies promoting them.

Regarding demand management, I wonder what extra benefit getting the extra customers above that 60% on-board will yield; what would the benefit of everyone being on a smart meter be?

• We couldn't move to a complete just-in-time service,as that would leave the country hugeley exposed on the energy front.
• Regardless of usage profiles, the green energy generated does need to be stored , unless the excess whilst the sun is out simply thrown away.
• Presumably the energy suppliers always need to keep a reserve buffer (at least 20%, I would surmise).
• The energy suppliers monitor the reserves that have in stock and buy & sell on that basis; the input amassed from smart meters may have some value in computing analyses after the event, but it wil not drive the buying and selling of energy.
• Energy usage is not completely predictable or deterministic.

So, there are a lot of questions and considerations regarding energy usage in the country; smart meters are far from being the whole story and there's little point in getting too het up about the matter.

BarelySentientAI

prowla said:

We couldn't move to a complete just-in-time service,as that would leave the country hugeley exposed on the energy front.

On a country scale, that's exactly what we have.

prowla said:

Regardless of usage profiles, the green energy generated does need to be stored , unless the excess whilst the sun is out simply thrown away.

We store almost no electricity.

prowla said:

Presumably the energy suppliers always need to keep a reserve buffer (at least 20%, I would surmise).

Suppliers keep no buffer.

prowla said:

The energy suppliers monitor the reserves that have in stock and buy & sell on that basis; the input amassed from smart meters may have some value in computing analyses after the event, but it wil not drive the buying and selling of energy.

Energy usage is not completely predictable or deterministic.

The improved granularity of data from smart meters is improving the predictability of the demand - which is already predictable to an astonishing level of accuracy (usually within 100MW of the 30000MW demand).

Suppliers don't monitor any sort of reserve in stock, because there is no 'stock' of electricity.

Your general point is decent, although I don't agree with it, but seems to be built on a whole lot of misunderstanding of how the system actually works.

Scot_39

I like my smart electric only meter and IHD combo.

I know one person still struggling with smart gas, one already reverted back to dumb meter by supplier, in my small Fri evening pub group.  Hardly scientific sample set, but hardly reassuring.

But since had it - its been updated quite a few times - mainly just tariff - but smets1 - so now been DCC integrated etc.

But in terms of user functionality,  the daily costs used to exclude SC completely - the supplier sent ex VAT rates, now sends VAT inc rates. And it even managed to lose weekly / yearly historic data summaries this New Year - but not last etc.
The worst thing is it does not really support multirate electric - no seperate registers / costs etc.
And last year EOn Next sent the wrong tariff rates - standard credit not direct debit - to many customers - which took them 3.5 months to correct - so sent that wrong data twice after 2 succisive 3m Ofgem cap changes.
But at least the supllier was still able to bill me using correct rates - and correct daily TOU registers - yes I did check.

So at least those werent arguably real fundamental failings.

When and IF - and it really is an IF for arguably too many - they work - and for those able (not everyone can) to befit from load shifting payments or willing to change to riskier / less stable pricing to benefit - from some of the deals - great.

Those savings - real as they may be for some - are only achieved when the tech works.

But that hasnt been the reality for literally millions - as  millions of smart meters at last count have no reliable WAN comms.

So until it works and works for everyone - or a far higher percentage than current - it's nonsense to talk of imposing what is universally recognised fact  - that current smart tech simply has not worked for some and so will potentially not work for some  future upgrades.

How many for instance in reality are being offered dual band or alt han in UK. 
How many are offered external antenna comms hubs etc.

At this rate - these issues are going to run into the next big comms issue- the switch from 2G to 4G for millions across many regions.

As for all the potential benefits of smart meters - every press article or post on forums when they fail to operate as designed - just makes the job of convincing others to adopt harder.

Not everyone refusing - or in some cases now regretting smart metering - aren't just doing so because of myths or conspiracy theories - but because of real world problems.

When something like 4m - thats over 10% don't communicate readings on WAN or in case of gas many dont communicate HAN to comms hub / WAN.  That's a big problem.

Including meters fitted for people who's tariffs are explicitly dependent on reliable smart readings on daily basis - by TOU register or 1/2 hourly block - yes that includes Octopus specials - who therefore don't benefit from the promised savings.

Some posters here have reported recurring faults, data missing for days or weeks on end  - at least at suppliers end, then recovers etc, others see actual functionality / billing errors introduced after ota updates they have no control over or even notified of.  Some even reporting really fundamental changes like changes to their e7 off peak timings.

And strikes me Ofgem and suppliers have been woefully slow to adopt to the failures and the more complex tech involved.

In both parameterisation / configuring terms, potential firmware induced issues (reported / blamed by suppliers when customers report issues) and management thereof, multivendor supply and even moreso the fundamental hardware / network limitations like the WAN / HAN comms failures.

booneruk

Scot_39 said:

When something like 4m - thats over 10% don't communicate readings on WAN or in case of gas many dont communicate HAN to comms hub / WAN.  That's a big problem.

People are angry/fearful about smart meters sometimes failing to send readings when they could just submit manually instead. Same people state a preference for traditional meters where they have to...erm, submit manually all the time. Where's the big problem?

There is a certain logic breakdown there I feel.

Look at bill, see estimated, submit manual reading. Don't do this and you accept bills based on estimated readings. It's the same for all meters. With traditional though, you're never going to get smart unit rates.

Scot_39

Look at bill, see estimated, submit manual reading. 

Did you read the next paragraph, if not let me be more explicit

On a 1 or 2 register monthly , 3 monthly or 6 monthly billing cycle tariff as you say for many - bar disabled or elderly vulnerable etc - bearable.

Don't ask me how smart prepay copes in mode - but I guess manually credited if physically able. 

But try doing that say daily on Octopus tracker.

Or doing that half hourly.

Every Sunday to save with BG (in reality every day)
During peak demand scheme periods - on comparison benchmark days and reduction payment days - as they need to see changes e.g. 4-6pm.
Every day on Agile or smart variable pricing EV / solar export.

That's 48 import and potentially 48 export readings per day, upto seven days a week, 52 weeks a year.

Many meters wont even give tge data on displays, so bringing third party apps or access websites like n3rgy into play - with the complications involved - including gmt/dst time stamping.

And then actually find a supplier willing to accept them manually and type them into their billing system.

That's where most of the big savings from smart are being made - by consumers.

So yes it is more than a bit of an issue for those trumpeting big savings available when the tech fails.

booneruk

I wasn't talking about submitting readings manually to obtain a smart energy rate, in fact I don't think that would be possible anyway (and it should be incumbent on the supplier not to tease such tariffs to people in areas where the signal might not reliably get through, or to discount people who have signed up and found it unreliable)

The_Hawk

prowla said:

Where does that 20-30% figure come from?
Is it a guaranteed 20-30% for everyhousehold who agrees to have a smart meter, or a typical saving for a typical family, etc.?

I can't speak for others, but my smart meter has allowed me to save on average (over the last couple of years):

• Electricity 30%
• Gas 40%

That's comparing the standard variable tariff with my current smart tariffs. I have no solar or batteries either.