Very pushy replacement energy meter calls

mmmmikey

prowla said:

BarelySentientAI said:

prowla said:

We couldn't move to a complete just-in-time service,as that would leave the country hugeley exposed on the energy front.

On a country scale, that's exactly what we have.

prowla said:

Regardless of usage profiles, the green energy generated does need to be stored , unless the excess whilst the sun is out simply thrown away.

We store almost no electricity.

prowla said:

Presumably the energy suppliers always need to keep a reserve buffer (at least 20%, I would surmise).

Suppliers keep no buffer.

prowla said:

The energy suppliers monitor the reserves that have in stock and buy & sell on that basis; the input amassed from smart meters may have some value in computing analyses after the event, but it wil not drive the buying and selling of energy.

Energy usage is not completely predictable or deterministic.

The improved granularity of data from smart meters is improving the predictability of the demand - which is already predictable to an astonishing level of accuracy (usually within 100MW of the 30000MW demand).

Suppliers don't monitor any sort of reserve in stock, because there is no 'stock' of electricity.

Your general point is decent, although I don't agree with it, but seems to be built on a whole lot of misunderstanding of how the system actually works.

I think your conclusions there serve to make my point, ie. if current predictions are to within 1 in 300, then the result of continued smart meter roll-out is statistically insignificant.

Regarding storage (of electricity), this ref https://www.energy-storage.news/800mwh-of-utility-scale-energy-storage-capacity-added-in-the-uk-during-2022/ asserts that 8x that 100 MWh variability was added to the grid in 2022; presumably it has continued to increase since.

In other words, the system has plenty of storage to cover the discrepancies.

Thus the "I gots to know!" reasoning behind pushy calls for smart meter installations really doesn't hold water.

All very clever stuff, but none of it changes the basic and indisputable facts that the smart meter roll out is helping an increasing number of customers make significant savings on their energy bills, whilst at the same time reducing the cost and increasing the practicality of providing green energy by encouraging consumers to use green energy when it is produced, reducing the need for hugely expensive storage and/or paying for wind turbines and other infrastructure to stand idle......

Qyburn

prowla said:

Regarding storage (of electricity), this ref https://www.energy-storage.news/800mwh-of-utility-scale-energy-storage-capacity-added-in-the-uk-during-2022/ asserts that 8x that 100 MWh variability was added to the grid in 2022; presumably it has continued to increase since.

In other words, the system has plenty of storage to cover the discrepancies.

That's around 90 seconds supply. When you refer to that as "plenty of storage", what purpose do you have in mind? 

Qyburn

prowla said:

I responded that I'm on a green tariff;  

There's no such thing, as you'd realise if you thought for  second. When someone signs up with  "green" supplier there's no increase in the amount of green energy being produced.

prowla

mmmmikey said:

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

Marvel1 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

prowla said:

powerful_Rogue said:

I would just double the standing charge and electric/gas rate for those that refuse a smart meter with no genuine reason.

I'm sure something like this will happen in the future, sadly it probably won't be as extreme as i'd like it to be.

Why on earth would you want to do that and what would you define as a "genuine reason"?

Plus, what would the "extreme" you'd like it to be - hanging?

Can't be fitted due to no fault of the occupier (EG: Spacing, no signal etc)

Extreme is what I said - Double standing charge and double unit rate for electric/gas.

As to why? Because the tin foil hat brigade irritate me!

What should my parents get then, when this email came through?!

Your April Power Move update.

Hi (Name)

During April your smart meter failed to send us readings at certain times, so we couldn’t see the full picture of your electricity use.

Unfortunately this means you won’t receive a Power Move credit this month.

Seems a bit tough, but it's clear from the OVO FAQs that if the meter doesn't communicate well enough then you can't participate. If your parents have a working smart meter but can't send out the data because of network issues then there's not much OVO or any other supplier can do about it other than make representation to the responsible party - presumably either the DCC or a comms provider. 

Half of me thinks that people who have cooperated fully with the smart meter rollout but are unable to benefit because of where they live should be offered some kind of compensatory payment or maybe a special discounted tariff. But who would pay for that? It would logically be added to the standing charges but that wouldn't be popular.

So maybe it's just a question of accepting that different places have different benefits and drawbacks. Some places can't get a decent TV signal, some places have busy roads, some places are more expensive than others and some you can't get a working smart meter......

Aye, so when you have companies wanting to force people on to smart meters, but they don't provide any guarantee that they will work.

In other words, the alleged 20-30% saving is just a load ot hot air!

There are also stories of people changing supplier and their smart meters not working.

The saving is actually is about 100% in my case because my smart meter measures both import and export from my solar panels. The combined effect of an increased export tariff and lower import costs has the effect of wiping out my bill altogether. 

Not everyone has solar panels of course, but anyone with a smart meter can access Octopus Agile, for example, and if you are prepared to open your mind and spend a few minutes reading the Octopus Agile thread on this forum you'll see dozens of examples of the kind of savings people are making. If you would prefer to avoid a time of use tariff you could switch to Tracker, and again if you're prepared to open your mind and look  at the Tracker thread you'll see dozens of examples of folks making big savings.

The savings to be made are very real, which is a fact that many contributors to this forum can attest to.

OK - you're a special case in that you have solar panels, which is a completely different ball-game.

Agreed - a 20% to 30% saving as previously quoted is a more realistic figure for those without solar panels. Note that many people are making these kinds of savings with no or minimal changes to their lifestyle / usage pattern, and again I'd refer you to the Agile and Tracker threads for examples. All you need is an open mind and to be one of the 90% plus people with a smart meter to benefit. NB if the problem with your smart meter is that the In House Display doesn't work (which accounts for a big slice of the 10% of so-called faulty meters) then you can still benefit from these savings.

If you're posting on a money saving forum saying that you don't think that kind of saving off your energy bills is worth keeping an open mind about and investigating properly, then you're probably posting in the wrong place....

Well, if you're espousing solar panels as a saving, then you're working towards a break-even of ~15 years, so it's more of a lifestyle choice than a real Money Saving scheme.

But, back to smart meters...

Me, I've not seen the case for having a smart meter fitted to date; I'm only on my 2nd Octopus bill and will take stock at some point; I always submit monthly readings.

My last month's energy bill was £148.14, comprising:

Electricity £64.76:

• Energy Used: 175.0 kWh @ 27.42p/kWh = £47.98
• Standing Charge: 30 days @ 45.67p/day = £13.70

Gas £83.38:

• Energy Used*: 999.6 kWh @ 7.16p/kWh = £71.56
• Standing Charge: 30 days @ 26.16p/day = £7.85
• (I'm just winding it back to my summertime setting of 1 hour in the morning and 1 in the evening for hot water on-tap.)
  

It's be interesting to see what the huge savings are that I might reap from having a smart meter fitted.

(Incidentally, when you continually say that people have closed minds it changes the perspective from helpful to accusatory and actually detracts from some of your reasoned arguments.)

BarelySentientAI

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

prowla said:

mmmmikey said:

Marvel1 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

prowla said:

powerful_Rogue said:

I would just double the standing charge and electric/gas rate for those that refuse a smart meter with no genuine reason.

I'm sure something like this will happen in the future, sadly it probably won't be as extreme as i'd like it to be.

Why on earth would you want to do that and what would you define as a "genuine reason"?

Plus, what would the "extreme" you'd like it to be - hanging?

Can't be fitted due to no fault of the occupier (EG: Spacing, no signal etc)

Extreme is what I said - Double standing charge and double unit rate for electric/gas.

As to why? Because the tin foil hat brigade irritate me!

What should my parents get then, when this email came through?!

Your April Power Move update.

Hi (Name)

During April your smart meter failed to send us readings at certain times, so we couldn’t see the full picture of your electricity use.

Unfortunately this means you won’t receive a Power Move credit this month.

Seems a bit tough, but it's clear from the OVO FAQs that if the meter doesn't communicate well enough then you can't participate. If your parents have a working smart meter but can't send out the data because of network issues then there's not much OVO or any other supplier can do about it other than make representation to the responsible party - presumably either the DCC or a comms provider. 

Half of me thinks that people who have cooperated fully with the smart meter rollout but are unable to benefit because of where they live should be offered some kind of compensatory payment or maybe a special discounted tariff. But who would pay for that? It would logically be added to the standing charges but that wouldn't be popular.

So maybe it's just a question of accepting that different places have different benefits and drawbacks. Some places can't get a decent TV signal, some places have busy roads, some places are more expensive than others and some you can't get a working smart meter......

Aye, so when you have companies wanting to force people on to smart meters, but they don't provide any guarantee that they will work.

In other words, the alleged 20-30% saving is just a load ot hot air!

There are also stories of people changing supplier and their smart meters not working.

The saving is actually is about 100% in my case because my smart meter measures both import and export from my solar panels. The combined effect of an increased export tariff and lower import costs has the effect of wiping out my bill altogether. 

Not everyone has solar panels of course, but anyone with a smart meter can access Octopus Agile, for example, and if you are prepared to open your mind and spend a few minutes reading the Octopus Agile thread on this forum you'll see dozens of examples of the kind of savings people are making. If you would prefer to avoid a time of use tariff you could switch to Tracker, and again if you're prepared to open your mind and look  at the Tracker thread you'll see dozens of examples of folks making big savings.

The savings to be made are very real, which is a fact that many contributors to this forum can attest to.

OK - you're a special case in that you have solar panels, which is a completely different ball-game.

Agreed - a 20% to 30% saving as previously quoted is a more realistic figure for those without solar panels. Note that many people are making these kinds of savings with no or minimal changes to their lifestyle / usage pattern, and again I'd refer you to the Agile and Tracker threads for examples. All you need is an open mind and to be one of the 90% plus people with a smart meter to benefit. NB if the problem with your smart meter is that the In House Display doesn't work (which accounts for a big slice of the 10% of so-called faulty meters) then you can still benefit from these savings.

If you're posting on a money saving forum saying that you don't think that kind of saving off your energy bills is worth keeping an open mind about and investigating properly, then you're probably posting in the wrong place....

Electricity Used: 175.0 kWh @ 27.42p/kWh
Gas Used: 999.6 kWh @ 7.16p/kWh

It's be interesting to see what the huge savings are that I might reap from having a smart meter fitted.

Well, there have been two people reporting their average electricity price on this thread recently.  One said about 9.5p and one said about 15p.  So that's either a 66% or 45% saving on electricity unit rate.

A quick look at gas tracker shows averages around 4.6p.  So 35% on that unit rate too.

ecraig

Take a look yourself at the average 30 day price for your specific region. 

https://gcccc4f6c5ed303-stjqaiwj9fvoaef2.adb.uk-london-1.oraclecloudapps.com/ords/r/gastracker2024/gas-tracker/home

prowla

Netexporter said:

Well, that's an interesting number, for sure!

I don't have gas (or solar or batteries) but my savings on electricity, on Octopus Agile, are similar. Last month I paid an average of 9.09p/kWh; the highest average I've paid is 19.56p/kWh and that was when the SVT was about 30p/kWh.

I just looked at those numbers and they could potentially help reinforce my aspiration of going all-electric when my ageing gas boiler finally pops its clogs.

However, the context would also entail costly changes to the house and thus wipe out any money savings per-se.

booneruk

prowla said:

However, the context would also entail costly changes to the house and thus wipe out any money savings per-se.

Very much like investments - you invest for rewards realised in the future.

If I embarked on any sizeable renovations to my property, I'd definitely be looking to fit it with solar panels etc and be ready for (hopefully!) half a century of savings.

prowla

BarelySentientAI said:

prowla said:

BarelySentientAI said:

prowla said:

We couldn't move to a complete just-in-time service,as that would leave the country hugeley exposed on the energy front.

On a country scale, that's exactly what we have.

prowla said:

Regardless of usage profiles, the green energy generated does need to be stored , unless the excess whilst the sun is out simply thrown away.

We store almost no electricity.

prowla said:

Presumably the energy suppliers always need to keep a reserve buffer (at least 20%, I would surmise).

Suppliers keep no buffer.

prowla said:

The energy suppliers monitor the reserves that have in stock and buy & sell on that basis; the input amassed from smart meters may have some value in computing analyses after the event, but it wil not drive the buying and selling of energy.

Energy usage is not completely predictable or deterministic.

The improved granularity of data from smart meters is improving the predictability of the demand - which is already predictable to an astonishing level of accuracy (usually within 100MW of the 30000MW demand).

Suppliers don't monitor any sort of reserve in stock, because there is no 'stock' of electricity.

Your general point is decent, although I don't agree with it, but seems to be built on a whole lot of misunderstanding of how the system actually works.

I think your conclusions there serve to make my point, ie. if current predictions are to within 1 in 300, then the result of continued smart meter roll-out is statistically insignificant.

Regarding storage (of electricity), this ref https://www.energy-storage.news/800mwh-of-utility-scale-energy-storage-capacity-added-in-the-uk-during-2022/ asserts that 8x that 100 MWh variability was added to the grid in 2022; presumably it has continued to increase since.

In other words, the system has plenty of storage to cover the discrepancies.

Thus the "I gots to know!" reasoning behind pushy calls for smart meter installations really doesn't hold water.

MW =/= MWh

The last part of the inaccuracy is the most expensive to address, and keeps getting more expensive.

You've also now gone from talking about 'suppliers' to 'the system' - a completely different emphasis and they don't work in anything like the same way.

None of your 'gotcha' arguments are as relevant as you think they are.  Nothing wrong with you having your point of view, but misunderstanding my responses doesn't help you support them.

Okeys - you said there is no stock of electricity and I pointed out there is, enough to cover it for 8 hours a day.

The suppliers are part of a system which delivers energy and bills us for the pleasure; many of the "suppliers" are just brokers and billing operations who don't really deliver the energy at all.

Yes, a MWh is the ability to deliver a MW for an hour; you're right i don't understand your point.

Scot_39

BarelySentientAI said:

Scot_39 said:

Over 10% failed is not any reasonable level for any system supplier

It isn't "over 10% failed" though.  A huge proportion of that 10% are doing exactly what they were supposed to do.

No they are not - they are not providing smart data to the networks.

They may be operating meters - but that wasn't what they were designed to do. 

That's why they are called smart meters and not their diital or analogue forerunners.