I need help getting a refund from Argos with PC

pepsik

My daughter has a new lap top from Currys ok I will respond to that email once I have my refund lol THANKYOU again 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MeteredOut said:

pepsik said:

Yes Lunatic in my head they said no at first then as I was writing to them using your tenplate I got an email saying as a gesture of goodwill they refund me and will collect tommorrow. So THANKYOU all for your help I really appreciate it 

Great result, but after collection, I'd probably respond to that reminding them that they are simply complying with their statutory duties, and there's been absolutely no goodwill in how they've dealt with you.

...and once the refund has been paid, but otherwise I agree entirely.

Yeap don't poke the bear too early!

pepsik said:

Yes Lunatic in my head they said no at first then as I was writing to them using your tenplate I got an email saying as a gesture of goodwill they refund me and will collect tommorrow. So THANKYOU all for your help I really appreciate it 

Great to hear OP, glad you got the right result in the end. 

HillStreetBlues

pepsik said:

My daughter has a new lap top from Currys ok I will respond to that email once I have my refund lol THANKYOU again 

Out of the frying pan...........

born_again

pepsik said:

My daughter has a new lap top from Currys ok I will respond to that email once I have my refund lol THANKYOU again 

I was just about to post... Hope they don't go to currys.

But hopefully daughter will have picked the one she wants, & there are no issues.

Okell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Okell said:

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk)

“distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded;    (reg 5)

That's the definition and as we are talking contract law here you might know more but my understanding is the word "concluded" means the time at which both parties become bound by their obligations under the contract.

"concluded" is not a very helpful word to use in the definition of a distance contract, is it?   

To most ordinary people "concluded" would mean when it's finished or over with and it could be argued that that is only the case after the goods have been collected rather than when the parties become bound by the contract.

More helpful phrases might have been "when the contract is formed" or "when the contract becomes binding on the parties".

I presume "concluded" is a translation from French or whatever language the originating EU directive would have been drafted in.

I wonder if some of the intent of that part of the directive has been lost in translation...?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

... I think that's probably what you are thinking of, regarding C&C from reading online it seems if you book a click and collect for say a car and pay a small holding fee then this is not a distance contract as you would be signing the final deal at the car dealership but AFAIK where you pay online it's classed as a distance contract...

Could it have been something you posted on a car distance sale thread?  I felt sure that you had posted some EU - or whatever - guidance saying that when you just visited a store to pick up a click and collect order it remained a distance sale...?  Maybe I'm wrong...

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Ah -  thinking some more about it before actually posting this comment it might not have been you and it might not have been click and collect either.     

I think it was guidance about visiting stores to look at something (eg a sofa) and whether or not that prevented a contract from being a distance contract.

Sorry - senior moment!

eskbanker

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but Argos refer to the CCRs on their own site, clearly implying that they apply to online purchases:

What are my Consumer Contract Regulation rights?

The Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 offers you cancellation rights when you buy by distance, for example online or by post. The Regulations state you may cancel your order provided you exercise your right to do so within 14 days. The 14 days starts the day after the date of delivery. The Regulations also state that goods must be returned within 14 days of exercise of your cancellation rights.

Our returns policy simplifies this to require returns within 30 days of collection or delivery. The Regulations don't apply to all goods. It's not possible to return goods which are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly; goods which are made to your specification or clearly personalised; goods sealed for health protection or hygiene reasons (if unsealed); audio, video recordings or computer software (if unsealed).

If you wish to exercise the right to cancel, you must tell us by using a clear statement. We accept return of goods to our stores within 30 days or, where goods have been delivered, please contact us within 30 days. Returns are at your cost except where we state otherwise.

You're required to take reasonable care of the goods until they're returned. We'll refund you using the payment card used at purchase within 5-7 days of our receipt of the goods. We'll refund any standard outbound delivery charge provided all goods are returned.

We may deduct from any refund an amount to reflect the loss in value of the goods as a result of any unnecessary handling by you.

Your statutory rights are not affected.

https://help.argos.co.uk/help/technical/what-are-my-consumer-contract-regulation-rights/72678

Olinda99

glad they acknowledge that your statutory rights are not affected as these trump whatever they say on their website !

and could someone please clarify - if you order and pay online but collect instore is it still a distance sale?

eskbanker

Olinda99 said:

and could someone please clarify - if you order and pay online but collect instore is it still a distance sale?

That's exactly what's been debated over the last few pages!  It's proving difficult to source definitive evidence of that, but that was why I cited their own policy statement, which seems to support this interpretation....

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

eskbanker said:

Olinda99 said:

and could someone please clarify - if you order and pay online but collect instore is it still a distance sale?

That's exactly what's been debated over the last few pages!  It's proving difficult to source definitive evidence of that, but that was why I cited their own policy statement, which seems to support this interpretation....

Best I could find is this which is talking about contract formation which is the key point here, if both parties are bound by the contract then it's a distance sale, if not then it isn't.

https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/click-collect-or-click-deliver-how-does-it-work/

Click & Collect are a hybrid and could be viewed as an on-premises sale or a distance sale. The law defines a distance sale as:

“’Distance contract’ means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded.”

Legally, there is a lot to argue over in this definition but the main focus for Click & Collect purposes is around when a contract is “concluded”. Despite the regulation becoming law in June 2014, this point has not yet been tested in court. In legal terms, a contract is formed when the deposit is taken as that binds the consumer to the sale. At this point, the consumer cannot back out of the sale without breaching the contract (thus losing their deposit to cover the dealer’s losses) and so it is fair to say the contract is concluded at that point, i.e. the deal is done. In regard to the distance sale rules, this will mean if you take a  deposit over the phone or via the internet, the deal will be done and the contract concluded, meaning even if the consumer comes to collect the vehicle, it will count as a distance sale.

There is an argument to say the deal is not “concluded” until the balance has been paid and the car handed over which means Click & Collect is not a distance sale as the consumer physically sees the goods and pays the balance at the dealer’s premises. However, this argument does not follow the law in regard to contract formation, it goes against consumer advice.



The issue I have with this advice is the part in bold, if it were a distance contract why would the consumer lose their deposit? The law requires a full refund in the event of cancellation. 

Okell

I have finally found the post I was looking for which I thought referred to guidance on distance sales and what exclusively by a means of distance communication meant.  It was by the lunatic but it wasn't about laptops or sofas or click and collect(!   ).  It was about a car purchase and it relates to visits to a trader's pemises merely to gather information about a future purcase.

But unfortunately it doesn't help clarify what is meant by "concluded" in respect of a contract.

It was posted on 25 January this year at 12:11pm  Cooling off period - Page 4 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

"EU guidance stipulates the following:  

 Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of distance communication: ‘The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication ( such as mail order, internet, telephone or fax ) up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance. By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract. Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional, such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser. […]’."

[@the_lunatic_is_in_my_head -  do you have a link to that guidance?}