Buy a EV battery car or not?

RogerPensionGuy

I've been on the verge of buying a new car for a while and think I've finally decided not to buy an EV battery car as it just appears wrong on so many fronts. 

Am interested in any comments on my view?

I'll explain my rational. 

I don't have home charging possibility, so charging is awkward, expensive and will always pay the extra 15% VAT on charging compared to home charging. 

I want at least 300 real miles range(so 330 on spec) for the odd long journey and to only charge it up twice or 3 times a week keeping at least 150 miles range available at most times.

Going on all the above, I will need a pretty fancy expensive EV car that will be heavy, produce lots of rubber pollution and buying tyres more often, more prone to damaged bulging tyres due weight and pot holes.

I have friends who have EV cars similar to my situation and they say unless I'm getting car cheap and/or salary sacrifice, an EV just isn't the best for me.

I've got friends with PHEVs and they say it's cheaper using the engine over the battery and these cars are carting around all the extra weight of the battery stuff all the time, I notice PHEVs are falling out of favour and manufacturers appear to be going much more for hybrids with smaller engines and use the battery stuff to make these car very efficient. 

Plus I notice battery EVs will start paying VED road tax soon, only £10 in 2025, but then goes up to at least £190 PA and guessing that will ramp up and up in short order.

Also I've been looking at battery performance in range and the makers are  saying a 20 or 30% loss of battery capacity and miles range is considered okay and just put up with it, new batteries can be 10,15, 20 or even 25K to replace.

So unless anyone can talk me out of not getting a battery EV car, think I'll start my research on normal ultra modern ICE(internal combustion engines) and ICE hybrids. 

PS, just to mention I did an insurance comparison on like for like cars with EV and  ICE/Hybrids, essentially same cars, but on average my insurance on EVs will be 75% more that ICE/Hybrids. 

I'm sure if you get an EV cheap or free to change at work, EV maybe works out better for pocket, but for me, it just looks like hassle and cost getting an EV. 

I'll look forwards to any comments?

Cheers Roger. 

Veteransaver

If you have to rely on public charging (especially rapid charging) then it probably won't save you anything over petrol and could well be a big hassle.

Your opinion on tyre wear and battery life isn't really reality though. EVs can be a bit heavier (though not always) but tyre wear is more to do with how you drive it. Brake dust pollution is also much lower due to them mostly using regen braking.
Battery degradation is a thing but batteries should be more than adequate for the life of the car. At 10 years old most models are likely to only have about 10% degradation or less.

Insurance can be more expensive but it's more to do with the outrageous performance of some of the EV models, some do have supercar like acceleration, compared to ICE vehicles with similar performance I don't think the differences are that much.

RogerPensionGuy

Veteransaver said:

If you have to rely on public charging (especially rapid charging) then it probably won't save you anything over petrol and could well be a big hassle.

Your opinion on tyre wear and battery life isn't really reality though. EVs can be a bit heavier (though not always) but tyre wear is more to do with how you drive it. Brake dust pollution is also much lower due to them mostly using regen braking.
Battery degradation is a thing but batteries should be more than adequate for the life of the car. At 10 years old most models are likely to only have about 10% degradation or less.

Insurance can be more expensive but it's more to do with the outrageous performance of some of the EV models, some do have supercar like acceleration, compared to ICE vehicles with similar performance I don't think the differences are that much.

Tks for post.

Reference weight, all the similar models I've checked are heavier in like for like battery form, I guess low range EV batteries could be less, but I want that 300 miles plus range. 

Reference battery degradation, I was in a VW dealership the other day, they offered a 7 year guarantee on battery degradation at only 70% at 7 years.

I asked if mine dropped below 70% will they replace battery, I was told they will change a cell to get it back to 70% minimum.

The above is partly why I was looking at 300 plus range when new as down the road, 200 plus miles would make it okay for many people I guess.

I also notice some EVs 2nd hand value have dropped more that 40% in just the last year in a like for like comparisons.

 Whereas I want a shinny new car, I'm sure a few years old UPe or Seat equivalent low range EV is extremely suitable for some people, but these cars I mention here with 30% or more battery degradation would not suit me at all.

I've driven a few battery EVs and really really like the way they drive, but for me currently, they don't appear ti suit my needs and from an overal environmental view, they are very wanting unfortunately, from am environment view I should keep my very cheap to run old car, swap the wheels and wrap it in a different colour and put private plates on it if I wanted(which I don't)

Maybe swopping the wheels and wrapping it what I should do if I'm bored of the way it looks.

LightFlare

Insurance is a bit of an unknown. Although I expect more info in the next 6 months or so.

Current thinking is that EV insurance will increase due to the increased repair costs and more being written off due to battery cell damage etc- whether there is any hard data on that, I’m not sure there is

uknick

I've run an EV for about 7 years with home charging.

If I was looking to change my car now, and I didn't have home charging, I wouldn't consider an EV at this time due to the increased cost and still inadequate charging infrastructure.  Yes, I know are now loads installed but I'm not sure reliability and quantity have increased in proportion with the increase in EVs on the road.

I'm surprised VW only offer 70% after 7 years.  The government rules to allow the new car grants used to be 80% after 8 years or 100k miles.  No doubt the removal of the grant has allowed manufacturers to gradually reduce the battery warranty terms.

Finally, if I were to buy an EV, it would only be secondhand.  You've already commented on the drop in value of used EVs and until people are convinced battery life will last much longer than the manufacturer's warranty, prices will always plummet when the battery gets near to the end of the warranty period.

Having said that, the current drop in used prices may be more to do with used EV prices being over priced as new ones were hard to get for a year or so after COVID ended.

born_again

As a EV owner. No home charging would be a big disadvantage, unless you can charge at work.

As to 300 mile range. How often do you travel that far & what is your annual mileage.

EV is not for everyone at the moment, but home charging is the biggest downside you have.

I'm using a 2nd hand Niro to get 300+ miles in warmer months & getting 280 at the moment. 

RogerPensionGuy

To add about 2nd hand EV values.

Just looking on autotrader at run of the mill brand new EVs, manufacturers are giving discounts of 30% off RRP on brand new and I see various preg EVs 6 months or a year old with 10, 20 or similar miles on the clock at 40% plus lower that todays RRP.

Polestar2 and ID3s sit well in the category about and with the updated ID3 and Polestar3&4 coming out now, these older models will be just getting cheaper throu 2024.

Reference 2nd hand values, the Chinese makers are starting to build huge numbers of EVs as profit margins are much better than ICE cars, the EV dream looks very bumpy in 2024 % 2025 I expect. 

Miser1964

OP has highlighted why pure EVs probably don't yet suite the majority of private buyers.

- Need charging at home and the EV-special overnight rate, or you're queuing and queuing and paying up to 80p/kWh at public chargers
- Depreciation esp. if buying new and current volatile prices 
- Insurance premiums due to concerns about fires
- Potential sky-high costs for failed batteries out of warranty
- Only company-car drivers get the tax-breaks (although they've been misunderstood)
- Risk that the current EV generation will be obsoleted by solid-state batteries in under 5 years or so
- Public charging infrastructure isn't acceptable making long journeys problematic, unless using Tesla Supercharger

If you can charge at home, have Octopus EV tariff from 2am-4am or equivalent, are making regular shorter drives, are avoiding ULEZ/Congestion charges with an EV, can buy on a PCP scheme with warranty and are OK handing the car back after 3 years then a Tesla makes sense.

shinytop

RogerPensionGuy said:

I don't have home charging possibility

That alone would rule it out for me. Apart from lower tailpipe emissions, home charging is the only advantage an EV has over an equivalent ICE car.  IMO of course.

Veteransaver

Miser1964 said:

OP has highlighted why pure EVs probably don't yet suite the majority of private buyers.

- Need charging at home and the EV-special overnight rate, or you're queuing and queuing and paying up to 80p/kWh at public chargers
- Depreciation esp. if buying new and current volatile prices 
- Insurance premiums due to concerns about fires
- Potential sky-high costs for failed batteries out of warranty
- Only company-car drivers get the tax-breaks (although they've been misunderstood)
- Risk that the current EV generation will be obsoleted by solid-state batteries in under 5 years or so
- Public charging infrastructure isn't acceptable making long journeys problematic, unless using Tesla Supercharger

If you can charge at home, have Octopus EV tariff from 2am-4am or equivalent, are making regular shorter drives, are avoiding ULEZ/Congestion charges with an EV, can buy on a PCP scheme with warranty and are OK handing the car back after 3 years then a Tesla makes sense.

Saying that solid state batteries will make older EVs obsolete is a bit like saying the cd player made cars with tape players obsolete. It's just a different tech and won't suddenly make older EVs useless.
And solid state is still years off. More likely that sodium batteries will replace current lithium batteries anyway (at least in smaller, lower range cars, they are far cheaper to make and the point where EVs are cheaper to buy than an equivalent ICE car is even closer)
And statistically, EVs are far less likely to catch fire than an ICE

Veteransaver

RogerPensionGuy said:

Veteransaver said:

If you have to rely on public charging (especially rapid charging) then it probably won't save you anything over petrol and could well be a big hassle.

Your opinion on tyre wear and battery life isn't really reality though. EVs can be a bit heavier (though not always) but tyre wear is more to do with how you drive it. Brake dust pollution is also much lower due to them mostly using regen braking.
Battery degradation is a thing but batteries should be more than adequate for the life of the car. At 10 years old most models are likely to only have about 10% degradation or less.

Insurance can be more expensive but it's more to do with the outrageous performance of some of the EV models, some do have supercar like acceleration, compared to ICE vehicles with similar performance I don't think the differences are that much.

Tks for post.

Reference weight, all the similar models I've checked are heavier in like for like battery form, I guess low range EV batteries could be less, but I want that 300 miles plus range. 

Reference battery degradation, I was in a VW dealership the other day, they offered a 7 year guarantee on battery degradation at only 70% at 7 years.

I asked if mine dropped below 70% will they replace battery, I was told they will change a cell to get it back to 70% minimum.

The above is partly why I was looking at 300 plus range when new as down the road, 200 plus miles would make it okay for many people I guess.

I also notice some EVs 2nd hand value have dropped more that 40% in just the last year in a like for like comparisons.

 Whereas I want a shinny new car, I'm sure a few years old UPe or Seat equivalent low range EV is extremely suitable for some people, but these cars I mention here with 30% or more battery degradation would not suit me at all.

I've driven a few battery EVs and really really like the way they drive, but for me currently, they don't appear ti suit my needs and from an overal environmental view, they are very wanting unfortunately, from am environment view I should keep my very cheap to run old car, swap the wheels and wrap it in a different colour and put private plates on it if I wanted(which I don't)

Maybe swopping the wheels and wrapping it what I should do if I'm bored of the way it looks.

The 70% thing is just them covering themselves against warranty claims. You could have an ICe engine completely fail 3 years after purchase and you'd not be covered at all. I know several people that have had 5 or 6 year old cars with fairly low mileage need a whole new engine. No warranty whatsoever.
My EV is 4 years old now and I've not noticed any degradation of the battery at all.
Range is actually better now as I've learned how to drive it a bit more efficiently.