Buy a EV battery car or not?

Bigwheels1111

WellKnownSid said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

I have currently put off looking to buy an EV anytime soon, currently looking at the latest PHEVs and Mild Hybrids, as I don't have home charging, looking very much like these new very efficient Mild Hybrids would suit me best.

Mild hybrids are not that efficient - from what I can tell it's just a marketing gimmick for manufacturers to get their CO2 emissions down a bit, they need the engine running every time you pull away.  By "hybrid" they mean that they strapped on a big alternator...

For context - our diesel 7 seater used to average 44mpg - and 36mpg around town.

Our strong petrol hybrid 7 seater is a foot longer than the diesel it replaced but averages 58mpg - and gets over 80mpg around town because you can drive around most of the day in electric mode.  It also zips silently from 0-30 much faster than many ICE cars, so great off the lights.

A PHEV gives you even more options - you always have the option to get to the shops on electric only.

That said I still much prefer our EV in terms of NVH and practicality

What make is your hybrid 7 seater.

WellKnownSid

Bigwheels1111 said:

What make is your hybrid 7 seater.

It's a Dacia... 

RogerPensionGuy

I'm still mulling over buying an EV car espically as their prices are dropping so much currently. 

I've done lots of research which is interesting.

Although I don't have home charging facilities, I don't do many miles and would only buy a long range car, so it's stuff I can live with.

There is so much information on the goods & bads of EVs, I was hoping to find a simple chart reference for say the cost of fuel, electricity, petrol or diesel to dive say 100 miles in say a Golf-E, Golf petrol and diesel. 

I have two friends that tell me using their PHEVs and public charging, its always cheaper using petrolor diesel than electric. 

I know some home charging is less than 10P per KW, and going up to 30P or so, but apparently some public charging is like 85P per KW.

I'm guessing for an average similar size car, when paying 50P per KW, and petrol at £1.40 per litre, the cost is the same, per mile of fuel consumed, I hear some public charging in 85P per KW. I posted two links below that probably make it easier to understand, looks like a public only charging person pays more per mile than ICE, if he only uses fast charging, he's well out of pocket. 
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https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/charging-price-index
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https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/electric-car-charging-guide/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-a8f4g1o7JzXj

ComicGeek

Generic information isn't going to help you, there's too much variation in prices. Best thing is to find the public chargers that you would use regularly and see what the prices are - also check if they are working on zap-map as quite a few around me have been broken for months now. 

Our local village hall charges 30p/kWh for a 7kW charge point, so I would have to leave it there for 4-8 hrs to get a meaningful charge - only 1 charge point so what if someone else is already using it? The local rapid 50+kW charger is 85p/kWh but I would have to sit with the car for around 30 minutes to get a meaningful charge.

It isn't clear whether you can't have home charging or just don't at the moment. If you can install a charge point then it becomes really easy - 10 seconds to plug in the car a couple of times a week. We have 2 EVs, but I wouldn't bother getting one without home charging. It's going to be more expensive than petrol/diesel and much more hassle.

Bigwheels1111

I have just travelled 510 miles before refilling the tank, Peugeot 5008 1.6 Bluehdi auto.

120 ish were 2.5 miles to hospital then back and a 20 mile round trip to Costco, all cold starts.

390 miles were Sidcup to Chesterfield and back with some running around.

I was full as full could be, topped up on a slope where I always do at BP.

I drove at 62 mph with cruise control on the Motorway.

I filled up at Costco and then BP where I top up on the slope.

Over 510 miles my mpg was 49.79 mpg that was 13p a mile at filling price.

My local BP EV charger is 79p per kwh.

I read that 3 miles per kwh is near the average use for an EV. Some get more.

That would mean that an EV would cost double for me to fuel and around 10k more to buy up front.

RogerPensionGuy

Bigwheels1111 said:

I have just travelled 510 miles before refilling the tank, Peugeot 5008 1.6 Bluehdi auto.

120 ish were 2.5 miles to hospital then back and a 20 mile round trip to Costco, all cold starts.

390 miles were Sidcup to Chesterfield and back with some running around.

I was full as full could be, topped up on a slope where I always do at BP.

I drove at 62 mph with cruise control on the Motorway.

I filled up at Costco and then BP where I top up on the slope.

Over 510 miles my mpg was 49.79 mpg that was 13p a mile at filling price.

My local BP EV charger is 79p per kwh.

I read that 3 miles per kwh is near the average use for an EV. Some get more.

That would mean that an EV would cost double for me to fuel and around 10k more to buy up front.

Tks for this post, although I'm not too bothered about fuel costs per mile, a battery EV car just looks so awkward for me as I probably cannot have home charging. 

Apart from X pence per KW, I see some chargers have another one off charge of X pence or more like £1.40 connection charge.  Then if on charging spot for longer than X hours, maybe 3 hours, you get billed X pence extra per minute, apparently 5P a min, so £1.40 connection and an extra £3 per hour over the X time limit.

Insurance, tyres, range anxiety, battery faults that a private owner pays for.

Looking like a PHEV petrol for me.

Goudy

Of course there are always differences between whatever type of car you choose but the latest "self charging" hybrids have moved on a step or two recently.

They tend to have bigger batteries and they have refined the hybrid system further so run more often on electric alone than earlier cars.

We're not talking 10's on miles like a PHEV, but enough to take a massive edge of fuel consumption when pulling away and pottering around towns and cities.

An example is the direct drive CVT.
The electric motor is geared to drive directly at slower speeds and bypass the gearbox altogether, so every time you pull away it's always on electric.
Ok, the engine might be running to produce electricity if the battery is low or if the heating controls are set high, to help warm the engine up, but it's not under the same load as it would dragging the car up to speed.

Once up to speed the gearbox takes over. This can also be driven by electric or petrol or both.

Think of it as the electric motor handles 0-30 or so directly.
Then the gearbox handles 31 onwards with either petrol, electric or both.

As the gearbox only handles the larger gears, it's much much smaller and lighter, also there's less power lost driving a gearbox at low speed.

A straight ICE is much less efficient pulling away than it is on a steady cruise, so the direct shift plays to both the electric motor and the ICE strengths.

Of course on the steady cruise when the ICE is in operation it is lugging around a battery and weight is a mpg/kwh killer.
But it's actually quite small at around 0.8 kwh compared to a PHEV which tend to start at around 20 kwh or more.

Because of this your Yaris hybrid isn't any heavier than a similar sized non hybrid Fiesta.

Again, with a PHEV you still have the charging situation.
If you can't home charge or charge for free at work you are still paying premium prices for electricity.
If the costs between petrol and electricity are equal, you're still losing out as you are lugging around a much heavier car.
A Toyota Rav4 PHEV is around 300kg heavier than the self charging version.

Yes, "self charging" hybrids are a bit of a sit on the fence type thing, but full EV's aren't suitable for everyone. Whether that's because of overall costs, charging costs, perceived range anxiety or whatever.
Until they are, you'll always get differences of opinion. 
 

Goudy

WellKnownSid said:

Bigwheels1111 said:

What make is your hybrid 7 seater.

It's a Dacia... 

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with this, I presume it's the hybrid Jogger?

Bigwheels1111

Toyota Corolla estate hybrid is the best option all round for me as my next car.
I aim to keep my 7.5 year old 5008 diesel for 7.5 more year if at all possible.
Ive only just hit 23,000 miles.
It’s a 30k upgrade that would save me £300 a year in fuel.
100 years to break even at today’s prices.

I Would not buy a new car until late 2025 or early 2026.
Not until euro 7 has arrived mid 2025.
EV’S are going to be hit hard, small particle emissions under PM 2.5.

RogerPensionGuy

For me personally, a mild hybrid looks best option, but if a sensible PHEV takes my fancy, that would be fine as I suspect down the road PHEVs may be treated more kindly by society and government taxes than mild hybrids even if the car is never plugged in like many PHEVs are not as loke for me, more expensive and time, so I would become like many, lugging around all the extra weight, waste of all the PHEV parts fitted and produce more small particular emissions than a mild hybrid. 

I like the link below, especially that Zero Emmision Car phrase should be changed to Tail-Pipe Emmisions.
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https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/research/aqeg/zero-emission-vehicles