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Okell

Aretnap said:

Car_54 said:

WEASELL said:

Car_54 said:

It may be worth noting that Dorset is unique. It is the only force in E and W that runs its own courses, not part of the NDORS scheme, so the OP’s experience may not be typical.

Car_54 said:

It may be worth noting that Dorset is unique. It is the only force in E and W that runs its own courses, not part of the NDORS scheme, so the OP’s experience may not be typical.

Many thanks, That is very interesting information. I will be making information requests ,under the data protection 2000 act in the next few days and This is the type of information I need.
Also it’s great to think perhaps there are more safeguards for the rest of the country.

Hi. You need to be aware that there is absolutely no legal basis for these courses. They are offered and operated entirety at the police’s discretion, to give you an opportunity to avoid any other action.

It follows that if they decide you haven’t complied in some way, there is no  mechanism to appeal, so things revert to fixed penalty or court. Again, that is essentially at their discretion.

... While speed awareness courses don't have any special status in law, it would seem to be an abuse of process for the police to promise not to prosecute the OP of he completed the course, then to prosecute him anyway when he had completed it. If the court is convinced that an abuse of process has taken place then it should halt the prosecution...

I haven't got all the paperwork from the NDORS course I did last month to hand at the moment, but it was made very clear when I accepted a course offer and booked it that if it wasn't successfully completed within four months of the offence date, that the "Police retain the right to withdraw a course offer at any time up to the point that you have successfully completed the course."

Also two days before the course I got joining instructions and a reminder of what IT equipment etc was required to participate.  They also told me:

"Other important information:

 

You will need to be in a private room, alone without disturbances.
You must engage in the course throughout – clients must not switch off their webcam, leave the course or have other members of the household in the room with them (unless previously agreed). Clients should give their full attention to the course and not be distracted. Trainers will remove clients at their discretion.
Please have a pen and paper available.
You will be required to agree not to record the course and respect the privacy of other clients on the course"

I don't know if Dorset Police provided the same instructions to the OP as NDORS provided to me, but if they did then - given the OP's account of the course - I'm not terribly surprised that Dorset Police have decided that the OP has not successfully completed the course to their satisfaction.  I also wonder from the OP's account whether the Police may have decided that they were not displaying an "appropriate attitude" and weren't treating the course sufficiently seriously(?).  

As speed awareness courses etc are an extra-legal disposal option, I'm not sure if this would constitute an abuse of process anyway?

WEASELL

Okell said:

Aretnap said:

Car_54 said:

WEASELL said:

Car_54 said:

It may be worth noting that Dorset is unique. It is the only force in E and W that runs its own courses, not part of the NDORS scheme, so the OP’s experience may not be typical.

Car_54 said:

It may be worth noting that Dorset is unique. It is the only force in E and W that runs its own courses, not part of the NDORS scheme, so the OP’s experience may not be typical.

Many thanks, That is very interesting information. I will be making information requests ,under the data protection 2000 act in the next few days and This is the type of information I need.
Also it’s great to think perhaps there are more safeguards for the rest of the country.

Hi. You need to be aware that there is absolutely no legal basis for these courses. They are offered and operated entirety at the police’s discretion, to give you an opportunity to avoid any other action.

It follows that if they decide you haven’t complied in some way, there is no  mechanism to appeal, so things revert to fixed penalty or court. Again, that is essentially at their discretion.

... While speed awareness courses don't have any special status in law, it would seem to be an abuse of process for the police to promise not to prosecute the OP of he completed the course, then to prosecute him anyway when he had completed it. If the court is convinced that an abuse of process has taken place then it should halt the prosecution...

I haven't got all the paperwork from the NDORS course I did last month to hand at the moment, but it was made very clear when I accepted a course offer and booked it that if it wasn't successfully completed within four months of the offence date, that the "Police retain the right to withdraw a course offer at any time up to the point that you have successfully completed the course."

Also two days before the course I got joining instructions and a reminder of what IT equipment etc was required to participate.  They also told me:

"Other important information:

 

You will need to be in a private room, alone without disturbances.
You must engage in the course throughout – clients must not switch off their webcam, leave the course or have other members of the household in the room with them (unless previously agreed). Clients should give their full attention to the course and not be distracted. Trainers will remove clients at their discretion.
Please have a pen and paper available.
You will be required to agree not to record the course and respect the privacy of other clients on the course"

I don't know if Dorset Police provided the same instructions to the OP as NDORS provided to me, but if they did then - given the OP's account of the course - I'm not terribly surprised that Dorset Police have decided that the OP has not successfully completed the course to their satisfaction.  I also wonder from the OP's account whether the Police may have decided that they were not displaying an "appropriate attitude" and weren't treating the course sufficiently seriously(?).  

As speed awareness courses etc are an extra-legal disposal option, I'm not sure if this would constitute an abuse of process anyway?

Thank you for such a detailed and informative answer.

At no time was I told there was any kind of problem at all. The first indication there was any type of problem was when a letter arrived telling me to pay another £100 and have three points, I knew it was a mistake so phoned the ticket office to clear it up and they dropped this bombshell.

From my point of view I attended and was engaged throughout the course.

The attitude of Dorset police is ‘ the computer says you were not there, so that’s that. No discussion. Prosecutors , jury and judges all wrapped into one. And let’s make life easy and dispense with the evidence.

They could have asked me a question or questions for any time that the course was on and the likelihood is I would have been able parrot exactly what the course had contained.

I also suspect my course cost more than yours as it was £130 pounds.

The attitude of Dorset Police was abysmal. Also it had the ring of a practised answer.

 In other words how many other people have been through the same experience as me but with no recourse, no one to listen.

I lay down this forum to help others in the future , it may not help but it’s a start.

I gave five star feedback on this course, do you think they will let me change it to one star retrospectively? ( that is a joke !! )

I think I have given people the wrong impression of my conduct through the course. I feel like everyone thinks seagulls were swooping down and landing on my shoulders etc.

The first bit of the course I was sitting in a chair in a car, very close to the Wi-Fi router. No passengers. I don’t think you could tell I was in a car. I swapped to a car seat, sitting with my back to a plain white wall.

I was 100 per cent engaged all the way through this training. The part I really don’t understand is that I was using the chat feature all the way through? So strange.

Also your idea of allowing people to re book when there have been tech issues ( who knows who the issues were with, it could easily have been GOTO the webinar platform.) is a fabulous idea. But it relies on people dealing with someone who has the smallest interest in listening, and that is most certainly not the case sadly.

WEASELL

Hi @Okell

The information you posted contains a wealth of information, and some I have yet to process.

You highlight

You will be required to agree not to record the course and respect the privacy of other clients on the course.

@aretnap, you very helpfully provides this information.

I'm not sure that it's correct that there is no mechanism to appeal whatsoever. While speed awareness courses don't have any special status in law, it would seem to be an abuse of process for the police to promise not to prosecute the OP of he completed the course, then to prosecute him anyway when he had completed it. If the court is convinced that an abuse of process has taken place then it should halt the prosecution.

So I am thinking that I am most likely doomed to the £100 fine and three points.

But if I had recorded the training I would have rock solid evidence of my participation and attention.

Then I would have been able to take the Dorset police to the small claims court and apply for a refund of my course money.

But I can’t go to the small claims court with a rock solid video recording because it isn’t Legal to record it.

Is this a catch 22?

Okell

@WEASELL -  when you did the Dorset course didn't you get the same or a similar set of instructions and warnings as I did before I booked and completed the NDORS course?

When I did my course we were all visible to each other on screen (there were only about 6 of us), the course leader could see us all the time, and we could all talk as required to answer questions and make comments etc.  It would have been immediately obvious to all the course participants if anybody was not engaging with the course appropriately.

Was your course not arranged like that?  If you weren't visible to the course leader all the time, how would he know you were participating throughout all of the course?

And when you say you used the "chat" facility, were you actually speaking to the course leader and others, or were you just typing on keyboard?  I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm not convinced that you starting the course sitting in a car and then moving the car seat outside so you could sit next to the wall would have satisifed my course requirements to be alone in a private room.  I don't know what problems you experienced but I'm not terribly surprised that they don't think you successfully completed the course to their satisfaction, or that perhaps you didn't appear to be taking it seriously.

The only argument I think you have is that if you were not warned by the course leader during the course that you were in danger of being failed, then you weren't given a fair opportunity to try to retrieve the situation.  But apart from that... [shrugs shoulders...]

The other thing I'd say - and advise anybody esle doing a course - try to do it on a laptop where you have a thoroughly reliable internet connection and make sure you've tested the video and audio beforehand.  We were given instructions about thow to do that.

Also get a course booked ASAP so that if you do experience difficulties you give yourself sufficient time to rebook.  I'd completed my course within a month of my wife (the RK) getting the original NIP

alidai

Completing a course whilst using the chat facility throughout?
So you are on a tablet, with a keyboard presumably taking up around half of the screen, and then also the chat window taking up another section, doesn’t leave much space to pay attention to the actual course content

caprikid1

Unfortunately as I have already stated, the horse has bolted and in hindsight you should have attended a course in person. You did not have the facilities or personal ability to show the required level of participation. 

Should you have been warned during ? Possibly but that may have happened and you missed it when you lost connection / were not paying attention.

The only option you really have at this point is to beg forgiveness and see if they will allow you to book a face to face course.

If you have already send lots of legalese correspondence than I suspect your pleas will be ignored.

I appreciate your frustration but I have been on 3 of these course (Long Story) and I would have expected you to fail too.

Yours Simon Habitual speeder (-:

strawb_shortcake

Glad I've booked the face to face course next month, it's only 10 minutes from home in a comfortable hotel. Also not far from where I got caught so can imagine there being a few of us that was caught on that trap being there maybe? 

Just out of curiosity, do you get refreshments at the f2f sessions?

Mutton_Geoff

When I did a course, the instructor was blunt with one or two of the attendees for wearing sunglasses and sitting so low only the top of their head was visible on the screen. I think they are used to people trying it on (not saying the OP did this), so their patience is very limited.

The OP's friend might have had the fastest internet in the world but internal wireless access points are not designed to penetrate brick, stone or Celotex so sitting outside (unless they had an external WAP) was never going to be a success.

GrumpyDil

annabanana82 said:

Just out of curiosity, do you get refreshments at the f2f sessions?

I did and I suspect most f2f would as it's long enough to justify it. 

user1977

annabanana82 said:

Just out of curiosity, do you get refreshments at the f2f sessions?

Depends on the venue I expect, I don't think they're thrown in as of right. There were vending machines at mine.