Managed migration payments very different

Spoonie_Turtle

^ Icequeen thank you, I understand all that from the screenshot of the statement, but DWP's mantra all along was that nobody would be worse off, citing transitional protection. Which implied the TP would be applied afterwards to ensure people truly would not be worse off. 
 
*Edit: actually no I don't understand your comment, because the example doesn't work out at all for the OP.  Their potential total UC award before deductions is higher than TC, which is given as the reason for not adding any TP - the statement says 0 for TP.  Then made deductions, leaving a lower UC award than the legacy benefit, leaving OP worse off.  

But in reality UC making deductions for income that TC ignored, after any TP is applied, means that a lot of people are going to be worse off.

I shouldn't be shocked that they … misled, but I am disappointed and actually quite worried about all the people who were assured they wouldn't lose money (in cash terms, anyway) on UC.

I haven't read the regs, maybe I should, but regardless the messaging was explicitly that nobody would be worse off, and that's turned out to be simply not true.

Icequeen1

Spoonie_Turtle said:

^ Icequeen thank you, I understand all that from the screenshot of the statement, but DWP's mantra all along was that nobody would be worse off, citing transitional protection. Which implied the TP would be applied afterwards to ensure people truly would not be worse off. 
 
*Edit: actually no I don't understand your comment, because the example doesn't work out at all for the OP.  Their potential total UC award before deductions is higher than TC, which is given as the reason for not adding any TP - the statement says 0 for TP.  Then made deductions, leaving a lower UC award than the legacy benefit, leaving OP worse off.  

But in reality UC making deductions for income that TC ignored, after any TP is applied, means that a lot of people are going to be worse off.

I shouldn't be shocked that they … misled, but I am disappointed and actually quite worried about all the people who were assured they wouldn't lose money (in cash terms, anyway) on UC.

I haven't read the regs, maybe I should, but regardless the messaging was explicitly that nobody would be worse off, and that's turned out to be simply not true.

I can see why you think that, I haven't explained it well enough. You are right the statement says 'Your UC entitlememt is not less than your previous benefits so we have not added an extra payment'. And you are right that it says that before the total entitlement before deductions figure. But the reason that TP has to sit there is because it is an element in the maximum award. It is an unfortunate choice of wording because it naturally leads you to think the figure it is referring to for entitlement is £1073 but it isn't. It is a max award figure less deductions from a notional UC calculation. 

So my example is right and would work for the OP - but it must mean that the UC's notional UC figure is not coming out the same as her actual UC figure of £176.85 per month. It must be coming out higher. 

As i said - transitional protection is a comparison between legacy benefits (as defined and set out in legislation) vs a notional UC figure (called the indicative UC amount) which is calculated based on assumptions set out in legislation. It is not based on the actual first UC award. 

But the deduction point is wrong - i have seen it discussed on numerous threads which is why I posted. 

It may be that the OP's calculation is wrong and she should get TP - but the reason she isn't getting it is nothing to do with the fact a deduction is applied. 

Spoonie_Turtle

I understand now, thank you - so we're still none the wiser why OP isn't getting any TP, but it shouldn't be a systemic flaw hammering everyone.

Icequeen1

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I understand now, thank you - so we're still none the wiser why OP isn't getting any TP, but it shouldn't be a systemic flaw hammering everyone.

yes exactly. It is either a mistake or it is because of something in the regulations when calculating the notional UC amount. Some people will be better off because of those regs, some worse. 

Yamor

If you are able to post the last current year tax credit award notice you received prior to migrating to UC (anonymised of course), we may be able to identify the issue.

Auti

@yarmor  - is this what you mean? I have no idea what the £1 earnings as an employee means as I have not worked for a few years. Edit: just to say for child I got 1 x family element £549 (366 days), 1 x child element £3235.44 (366 days) with no reduction due to my income.



 

andrewmp

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I understand now, thank you - so we're still none the wiser why OP isn't getting any TP, but it shouldn't be a systemic flaw hammering everyone.

The system is broken. They said nobody would be worse off, but loads will be.  Basically anyone with unearned income.

Icequeen1

andrewmp said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I understand now, thank you - so we're still none the wiser why OP isn't getting any TP, but it shouldn't be a systemic flaw hammering everyone.

The system is broken. They said nobody would be worse off, but loads will be.  Basically anyone with unearned income.

It isn't the case that anyone with unearned income is worse off. This came up on a previous thread and i think Yamor explained that there seems to be a difference between the legislation and what is happening in practice in some cases and so that can be challenged via a mandatory reconsideration. The legislation does not make everyone with unearned income worse off. 

But there are situations where due to the definitions used or a few other things people will be worse off. Equally there will be a few situations where people will get a transitional element even though their UC award will be higher. 

Auti

@Icequeen1. Tax credits is correct for my payments received during the tax credit payment period. When I had to migrate I got another letter (see below) and i phoned because it did not say my CBESA and i got really worried and because they had taken off £300 from pension. I worked out the amount of CBESA and he agreed it was that amount to be counted - he could not say why they had not written it on the letter. The person I spoke to entered all the details/checked details and said that they had the information and were ending tax credits due to migration - he did say that I would get a final tax credit letter once it had all been done but I have not got that yet. I am now confused and totally lost over all this and it is getting a bit overwhelming. Thank you to everyone for your help and just being there. EDIT the pension numbers are correct - pension per calendar month , CBESA I believe so but they have averaged it and I gave them the amount per 4 weeks so I assume so - £259 every 2 weeks. 
EDIT: removed identifiable information

Icequeen1

Auti said:

@Icequeen1. Tax credits is correct for my payments received during the tax credit payment period. When I had to migrate I got another letter (see below) and i phoned because it did not say my CBESA and i got really worried and because they had taken off £300 from pension. I worked out the amount of CBESA and he agreed it was that amount to be counted - he could not say why they had not written it on the letter. The person I spoke to entered all the details/checked details and said that they had the information and were ending tax credits due to migration - he did say that I would get a final tax credit letter once it had all been done but I have not got that yet. I am now confused and totally lost over all this and it is getting a bit overwhelming. Thank you to everyone for your help and just being there. EDIT the pension numbers are correct - pension per calendar month , CBESA I believe so but they have averaged it and I gave them the amount per 4 weeks so I assume so - £259 every 2 weeks. 
(Removed by Forum Team)

I think part of the issue is your income has increased. Transitional element looks at your legacy benefit entitlement on the day before you migrate vs a notional UC entitlement calculated under the legislation. The finalisation of your tax credits - whatever that does to the figures, won't affect the transitional element calculation. 

Your tax credit award looks like it was based on previous year income (2022/23). It looks like your income has increased (probably due to April increases). When they calculated your transitional element, they used the income from your tax credit award in the picture for both the tax credits and UC calculation. However when you got your first UC award, they used your income now (which is higher than it was in 2022/23). So that will account for some of the reason you haven't received transitional protection even though your UC award is lower. But it probably doesn't account for the whole thing. 

Interested in whether others who know the legislation well agree with what I think. 

As I said above, you need DWP to provide you with the transitional protection/element calculation