'Unfair' standing charges need to go: MPs back Martin's and MSE's calls for energy bill overhaul

[Deleted User]

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

They are talking about France, where the maximum draw disconnection system has been in place for many years, long before smart meters. 

Whilst UK smart meters are technically capable of it, the capability would first need to be added at a software level, there would need to be legal and regulatory changes and then customers would need to be informed that they were being moved to that tariff/system and it would be managed by the DNO, not the supplier.

The reason similar claims are often picked up on by regular forumites is because it is claimed that the energy suppliers could do it on a whim, now/immediately and/or used as random load shedding. That is not the case to start with and it would take months, probably years to legislate and regulate and if load shedding is needed that is already provided for, with a solid plan in place that has nothing to do with smart meters.

I accept that we might never see the French and Spanish tariff models. What is clear though is that the standard model of ‘use what you want, when you want’ is changing.

‘Scotland-headquartered energy solutions provider SMS is to lead the development of a smart meter data-based electricity time-of-use tariff engine.

The project, which is being supported with funding from the UK government’s Alternative Energy Markets innovation programme, is aimed to design an engine that can generate optimised time-of-use tariffs for households based on their energy usage patterns.

The ‘Intelligent Smart Energy Engine’ (ISEE) is planned to be built based on similar principles used by tariff comparison mechanisms.

Using half hourly smart meter data, to be carried out by SMS’s energy data company n3rgy, the engine will combine household consumption information with the operational data associated with individual appliances such as battery storage, heat pumps, electric vehicle chargers and white goods that are already installed or plan to be installed in the home.’ 

All very clever stuff.

Gerry1

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

Whilst UK smart meters are technically capable of it, the capability would first need to be added at a software level, there would need to be legal and regulatory changes and then customers would need to be informed that they were being moved to that tariff/system and it would be managed by the DNO, not the supplier.

@MattMattMattUK Have you studied the smart meter specification?

No, thought not.

The capability for Load Limiting, Load Shedding, Time of Use (=Surge Pricing) etc has been baked in from the start.

Gerry1

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

The reason similar claims are often picked up on by regular forumites is because it is claimed that the energy suppliers could do it on a whim, now/immediately and/or used as random load shedding. That is not the case to start with and it would take months, probably years to legislate and regulate and if load shedding is needed that is already provided for, with a solid plan in place that has nothing to do with smart meters.

@MattMattMattUK For the record, I've never said that.  It's not helpful to associate me with others who may have.

I've just highlighted all the Demand Side Response measures that have been built in to smart meters.

MattMattMattUK

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

Whilst UK smart meters are technically capable of it, the capability would first need to be added at a software level, there would need to be legal and regulatory changes and then customers would need to be informed that they were being moved to that tariff/system and it would be managed by the DNO, not the supplier.

@ MattMattMattUK Have you studied the smart meter specification?

No, thought not.

The capability for Load Limiting, Load Shedding, Time of Use (=Surge Pricing) etc has been baked in from the start.

Load Limiting and Load Shedding exist at a hardware level, they are not currently enabled in software, enabling them would require software updates, changes to legislation and changes to regulation.
ToU has been there from a start, the minimum reference period is currently 30 minutes for residential contracts, however you mentioned "Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection", not "Time of Use (=Surge Pricing)" in your first post.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

MattMattMattUK said:

The reason similar claims are often picked up on by regular forumites is because it is claimed that the energy suppliers could do it on a whim, now/immediately and/or used as random load shedding. That is not the case to start with and it would take months, probably years to legislate and regulate and if load shedding is needed that is already provided for, with a solid plan in place

Is this not what part 8 of the energy bill is stepping towards, encouraging consumer's to take up use of energy smart appliances in relation to EV charging, refrigeration, cleaning, battery storage, electrical heating, air conditioning or ventilation that can adjust their load based upon remote signals ultimately allowing suppliers to perform load control on behalf of the consumer. 

The government has said the purpose of the legislation is to introduce regulation of such activities in order to protect the consumer but it would appear they are certainly laying ground work in terms of legislation to control how much energy certain appliances in your home may consume. 

MultiFuelBurner

As usual off on a tangent about smart meters.

The title 

Unfair' standing charges need to go: MPs back Martin's and MSE's calls for energy bill overhaul

As someone else said earlier in the thread, someone will win and someone will lose.

I am not really bothered either way, no standing charge or standing charge it will get paid somewhere along the line. I understand the need for it and I understand the notion that some believe they are entitile.to no standing charge.

Does this make Martin and Knight of the Realm if he convinced the masses and Government of this one?

Scot_39

Does this make Martin and Knight of the Realm if he convinced the masses and Government of this one?

Definitely not in my view.

The govt changed the rules iirc in  2016.

There are according to MSE article on standing charges only 2 suppliers offer zero standing charge deals - I found an article from 2019, with 4 - two now defunct..  You ever wondered why ?

Someone has to pay grid costs.  The suppliers do - and guess who pays them.

His proposed solutions in past - include simply moving it all onto unit rates. Well guess what - on average that doesn't reduce energy bills at all.

There are far more fundamental issues in energy pricing that need to be resolved in UK that work against consumers in terms of pricing over last 12-18m if not permanently.

Like the grid bid auction pricing model.  That handed massive profits to non CfD renewables and nuclear i.e. EDF France and hence French govt as 80%+ state owned - paying them the same price as gas generation.
One of the reasons UK energy bills - at the real Ofgem £4200+ cap not the £2500 epg - paid by many firms and even domestic consumers on communal supply deals - went far higher than others in some neighbouring EU states.

And remember all those 6p and 33p EPG discounts in peak winter from Jan to Mar and lower 17p etc Oct -Dec and Apr-Jun aren't free - they are now part of debt and with it debt interest that consumes nearly 10% of central govt budget spending. 

[Deleted User]

MultiFuelBurner said:

As usual off on a tangent about smart meters.

The title 

Unfair' standing charges need to go: MPs back Martin's and MSE's calls for energy bill overhaul

As someone else said earlier in the thread, someone will win and someone will lose.

I am not really bothered either way, no standing charge or standing charge it will get paid somewhere along the line. I understand the need for it and I understand the notion that some believe they are entitile.to no standing charge.

Does this make Martin and Knight of the Realm if he convinced the masses and Government of this one?

You are looking at standing charges through a rearward looking periscope. Smart meters and a smart grid are key to reducing standing charges for all customers:

 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6475268/why-we-need-a-smart-grid-and-smart-meters/p1?new=1

MultiFuelBurner

For reference a quick look at my posts on the energy forum will show I am for smart meters but then again I don't care if my nextdoor neighbour has one or not despite me telling them how much they could save on TOU tariffs.

If standing charges cannot go until we all have smart meters well that's 2035 sometime I suspect.

Seems this is being discussed a bit early we have 12 more years imo

badmemory

I don't see how standing charges are ever going to go even with smart meters.  We will have the ever increasing energy companies senior pay & dividends to fund & the up in OFGEM allowed profits.  Also the nasty things that are supposed to happen to the people with smart meters & being cut off will not happen either.  Well not until they have got all of us on smart meters anyway.  After that we could all be back on the 3 day week, well depending on where you live anyway.