'Unfair' standing charges need to go: MPs back Martin's and MSE's calls for energy bill overhaul

matt_drummer

Scot_39 said:

A small to mediym property combi gas boiler can peak at 25-40 kW.

When the 20+ million using them agree to pay £400+ standing charges then I'll maybe start to listen to this debate.

Until then it's a highly discrimatory move against in many cases the poor and elderly who live with electric heating.

Not all of whimom are on benefits that qualify for additional aid.

I think that more of the costs should be moved to gas even if they don't directly relate to gas supply.

It is time to stop burning stuff and promote the move to cleaner heating in particular.

But it won't be a vote winner.

We just love burning stuff in our homes and in our cars. It is what we are used to and many people see no viable alternative,  they just can't understand cleaner and more efficient technology. Basically it just come back to money as most things do.

Spoonie_Turtle

matt_drummer said:

Scot_39 said:

A small to mediym property combi gas boiler can peak at 25-40 kW.

When the 20+ million using them agree to pay £400+ standing charges then I'll maybe start to listen to this debate.

Until then it's a highly discrimatory move against in many cases the poor and elderly who live with electric heating.

Not all of whimom are on benefits that qualify for additional aid.

I think that more of the costs should be moved to gas even if they don't directly relate to gas supply.

It is time to stop burning stuff and promote the move to cleaner heating in particular.

'Green levies' for sure, if I'm understanding correctly that it's basically all lumped onto electricity charges when gas is much worse for the environment. 

I'd be happy for some still to be on electricity costs, to pay a share of it, but seems perverse that all-electricity households pay far more than households with gas or any other burning fuel.

MattMattMattUK

Spoonie_Turtle said:

matt_drummer said:

Scot_39 said:

A small to mediym property combi gas boiler can peak at 25-40 kW.

When the 20+ million using them agree to pay £400+ standing charges then I'll maybe start to listen to this debate.

Until then it's a highly discrimatory move against in many cases the poor and elderly who live with electric heating.

Not all of whimom are on benefits that qualify for additional aid.

I think that more of the costs should be moved to gas even if they don't directly relate to gas supply.

It is time to stop burning stuff and promote the move to cleaner heating in particular.

'Green levies' for sure, if I'm understanding correctly that it's basically all lumped onto electricity charges when gas is much worse for the environment. 

I'd be happy for some still to be on electricity costs, to pay a share of it, but seems perverse that all-electricity households pay far more than households with gas or any other burning fuel.

Gas burnt in a power plant to generate electricity is less efficient than gas burned domestically for heat, transmission losses sit in the 9-11% range depending on the year. Many large sites actually take gas from the grid to run their own turbines and gen sets as the cheaper cost and greater efficiency is considerably cheaper than grid electricity, the issue for most homes is that turbines do not deal with fluctuating demand well and are inefficient at low power, but for a large industrial site self generation can make sense. On occasion even diesel generation can be cheaper than grid for commercial/industrial users depending in TOU tariffs and overall demand requirements. 

As well as individual efficiency improvements we also need improvements in the grid, reducing transmission losses, that investment is being funded from the standing charge.

Scot_39

QrizB said:

Scot_39 said:

A small to mediym property combi gas boiler can peak at 25-40 kW.

On the other hand, a small to medium property with a regular boiler and a HW tank only needs 9-12kW.

I could probably burn a plug in 1-2 kW fire most days - and still use less energy overall over 24 hours on most days - but the argument was about adopting a French peak kVA cap based SC system - not an average one.

And the 80% who are so used to relying on cheap gas for heating - have no concept of the cost to do so similarly using conventional - even off peak NSH based - electrical heating.

But in the next decade or two - many will find themselves being increasingly exposed to it.

And lets not forget electric users already pay c4x the kWh unit rate as gas for their heating.  And even E7 - because of the peak premium to get the off peak discount - still leaves it well over double - depending on peak off peak mix.  MY E10 at my mix my average unit rate over treble at July prices.

badmemory

As well as individual efficiency improvements we also need improvements in the grid, reducing transmission losses, that investment is being funded from the standing charge.

Is supposed to be being funded from the standing charge.  Not that there seems to be much evidence of that so far.

Scot_39

The grid isn't being driven by efficiency demands.

It's been driven by net zero demands.

There is nothing efficient about doubling up on generation capacity - in case half of it fails to deliver (every overnight in the case of solar - or on still days / weeks - with wind).

And building it 100s of miles from consumers doesn't help with grid costs - or for that matter additional transmission losses.  (But high level grid losses are relatively small - figures on some links suggest 3%/1000kM - at highest voltages)

Power on EGL2 might eventually have travelled over 500 miles, gone through 3 AC to DC HVDC link convertor / invertor stages - all with associated losses.

badmemory

How many generation schemes have been waiting to join onto the grid?  Quite a lot - what a waste.

Gerry1

[Deleted User] said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

[Deleted User]

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

@Gerry1 You have consistently tried to push the line that suppliers will take this action without the consumer’s approval. For once, please admit that you have read an outdated piece of information which is not backed up by any real World facts.

I will say it again, a power-limited tariff is a contractual agreement between the supplier and the consumer. The supplier gets the benefit of knowing what the maximum power load will be: in return, for a low kW tariff the consumer pays a reduced standing charge.

Load limiting: yes, I pay 7.5p/kWh for a tariff where the supplier takes control of my EV charging. It makes money by using my EV battery to help balance the Grid. I still get the EV charge that I want by the time that I want it and, as a bonus, I get 6+ hrs of cheap energy each day to use how I like. 

‘Grid balancing is the term used to describe the task utility companies have of supplying the correct amount of electricity to the grid. With the recent influx of cheap renewable electricity to national power infrastructure, grid balancing has become increasingly important. 

As renewable energy supplies are dependent on natural phenomena they can often provide under and oversupplies of electricity to the grid. If these excesses are not correctly balanced the excess voltage can cause damage to electronics connected to the system.

Conventional grid balancing involves ramping (i.e. increasing) existing power generating infrastructure to smooth out the supply of power. This often involves ramping up power plants which use fossil fuels, which in turn increase fuel consumption (and therefore emissions) and demand more maintenance whilst also reducing efficiency.

Recent calculations stated that approximately 20% of the expected reduction in carbon dioxide, and approximately 100% of the expected reduction of oxides of nitrogen, from using wind and solar power could be lost because of the requirement to ramp power stations.’ source AzoCleantech

This is how the smart meter features that you have taken such a personal dislike will work in practice. I am all for taking a principled stance on something but not when it would cost me £00s a year to do so.

MattMattMattUK

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

Netexporter said:

I like this as a concept but I can't see how you would distinguish high use between those with money and those without?

I believe they fit a limiting device so it is up to the customer to decide what limit they want and how much they pay in standing charge.

The smart meter is the limiting device and this is what remote disconnection is all about. If the agreed power level is exceeded and warnings (IHD/Text/etc) are ignored, then the supply will be disconnected. Reconnection is via a dedicated National phone line. Frequent excursions result in the consumer being moved to a higher kVA tariff with a higher standing charge.

Wow !  Smart meters allowing Load Limiting and Remote Disconnection...

If I'd said anything like that I'd soon have been accused of scaremongering and wearing a tinfoil hat (not by you of course).

They are talking about France, where the maximum draw disconnection system has been in place for many years, long before smart meters. 

Whilst UK smart meters are technically capable of it, the capability would first need to be added at a software level, there would need to be legal and regulatory changes and then customers would need to be informed that they were being moved to that tariff/system and it would be managed by the DNO, not the supplier.

The reason similar claims are often picked up on by regular forumites is because it is claimed that the energy suppliers could do it on a whim, now/immediately and/or used as random load shedding. That is not the case to start with and it would take months, probably years to legislate and regulate and if load shedding is needed that is already provided for, with a solid plan in place that has nothing to do with smart meters.