Demand Flexibility Service 2023 (and beyond!)

bristolleedsfan

MultiFuelBurner said:

Lorian said:

DFS, i guess the sale is over?

If the energy company has a successful bid at a higher unit rate than they pass on to their participants then they make money - that would be somewhat at odds with them trying to market the sessions under the guise of a service message to customers.

Even at the "enhanced" rates possible last year I'm sure a lot of people would have generated disharmony amongst family. For pennies I suspect uptake won't be what they are expecting.

I doubt it costs them nothing to run these events so some will be running costs.

But yes as said earlier.in.the post I expect they will add some.enticements.along.with.the pennies.

Some providers felt able to pay participants full unit rate others felt the need to gain up to 75p per unit less.

British Gas felt able to "doubled all our customers' rewards, passed on 100% of these savings as credit on their energy bills, and made sure they always earned at least £1 for every event they saved"

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/peak-save/winter.html

MultiFuelBurner

bristolleedsfan said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Lorian said:

DFS, i guess the sale is over?

If the energy company has a successful bid at a higher unit rate than they pass on to their participants then they make money - that would be somewhat at odds with them trying to market the sessions under the guise of a service message to customers.

Even at the "enhanced" rates possible last year I'm sure a lot of people would have generated disharmony amongst family. For pennies I suspect uptake won't be what they are expecting.

I doubt it costs them nothing to run these events so some will be running costs.

But yes as said earlier.in.the post I expect they will add some.enticements.along.with.the pennies.

Some providers felt able to pay participants full unit rate others felt the need to gain up to 75p per unit less.

British Gas felt able to "doubled all our customers' rewards, passed on 100% of these savings as credit on their energy bills, and made sure they always earned at least £1 for every event they saved"

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/peak-save/winter.html

I am well aware that's why I said I expected enticements this year so it won't just be pennies given the redaction of the in day adjustment period.

We shall all have to wait and see what our suppliers offer.

Petriix

As I understand it, the energy companies themselves also benefitted from IDA 'gaming' because their total savings were calculated using the same method as the individuals. As such I imagine the overall calculated savings will be vastly lower, even with significantly increased participation.

I'm unsure what level of genuine savings could actually be achieved given that the people most likely to engage are self selected from the typically lower users. Without proper incentives I expect most people probably won't bother. 

mmmmikey

I'm with @MultiFuelBurner and @Petriix on this. I really can't see this working without significant incentives.

Without additional incentives, I can imagine that a lot of people will sign up having heard about the amount of money some customers made last time, but when they realise that despite their efforts they're only making a few quid a month I expect interest will wane rapidly.

I'd like the scheme to be a success because I'm absolutely convinced that TOU tariffs are the route to more affordable, clean energy. Anything the DFS does to help people understand and manage their load at peak times can only be good. I just fear that the whole scheme will just fizzle out.

Andreg

In anticipation of the DFS events being at peak times again, I have rescheduled my regular electric water heating.  Last year most of the DFS events were in the evening peak: between 17:30 and 19:30, so I've set it to the middle of this period.  If I didn't reschedule, my reference consumption in this period would only be 400W; not enough to be worth the hassle of opting-in and switching-off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this - I'm using the same amount of energy just at a different time.  The way I see it: if they didn't want us to do this they would include some incentive to switch regular usage out of peak periods.

MultiFuelBurner

Andreg said:

In anticipation of the DFS events being at peak times again, I have rescheduled my regular electric water heating.  Last year most of the DFS events were in the evening peak: between 17:30 and 19:30, so I've set it to the middle of this period.  If I didn't reschedule, my reference consumption in this period would only be 400W; not enough to be worth the hassle of opting-in and switching-off.

I'm not sure if people will say this is 'gaming' the system, but the way I see it: if they didn't want us to do this they would include some incentive to switch regular usage out of peak periods.

Gaming (using the formula as designed)was a one time deal. It may just be pence this time round but who knows the suppliers might add some bonuses.

michaels

TheElectricCow said:

I've now watched the webinar hosted on the 7th (now available on the website linked in the first post), if DFS is of particular interest to anyone it's worth a watch, of course the focus is geared more towards industry participants/providers in the scheme rather than direct consumers.


A few notes on some more highlights:

• This year we'll see in day procurement taking place, meaning that the scheme could be activated at 9am/12pm the same day, rather than the day ahead method we saw last year activating the scheme at 2:20pm a day in advance. The goal is to move towards DFS being a real time service which can be used when needed, rather than predicting possible energy supply shortfalls ahead of time.
• The In Day Adjustment is confirmed to be removed, with no replacement, with the reasons cited being to simplify the system and avoid any "perverse incentives" (something brought up multiple times over the webinar)
• Participants (suppliers) will be allowed to choose between running an opt-in or opt-out system for consumers joining the scheme this year. It should be noted that any increased usage during DFS reduction hours will counteract the participant's reward for reduction made, so most suppliers may choose to stick with the opt-in method.
• If volume of people taking part is high there is a possibility of DFS being activated for different participants at different times to stagger the load reduction. The event will still all take place on the same day for everyone, and it'll be on a per-participant basis, so each supplier won't have multiple different start times between their own consumers.
• Where one MPAN joins the scheme from multiple providers (e.g. through an energy supplier and one of the apps) the latest sign up "wins"
• Suppliers will have a requirement to "mitigate potential gaming behaviour" by notifying ESO where this can be identified
• "Increased export" can be considered alongside reduced consumption for DFS rewards, although it's unclear if this is something the energy suppliers will be offering to consumers at this stage
• Much higher participation is expected this year
• Pending approval from Ofgem, the "go live" date for the scheme is 30th October

Finally, attendees of the webinar were directed to a number of documents on the NGESO website to address various queries. I won't cover them all, but one part which stood out was from Communication Principles v4 and feels quite relevant to the behaviour from Eon Next last year, who did an excellent job of providing as little information about joining the scheme as possible and not allowing anyone without marketing communications enabled to take.

Ensure clarity – Be clear who can take part and what they need to do. Requirements

(such as having eligible meter points, amongst other topics) are set out in the DFS Procurement Rules. Please ensure it is clear how to register and de-register as consumers can only participate with one DFS provider at any one time.

Based on the ICO’s published guidelines on electronic direct marketing ESO believe that it is possible for communications with customers telling them about DFS to be written in such a way that they are “service messages” which can be sent to all customers, and not marketing messages which could not be sent to customers who had opted out of marketing. [...]

The ICO’s guidance places emphasis on service messages being worded “neutrally”.

ESO believe it could therefore be acceptable for DFS providers to provide their customers with factual information, using neutral wording, about the DFS, including details of what it is and its purpose (including details of why the scheme has been devised), and information about how customers can take advantage of the scheme if they wish.

Can't help thinking that this would be the real killer app - lots with batteries who would happily help out with grid load by exporting for £3 per kwh and as far as I can see megawatts are just as useful as negawatts for this purpose.

cm4ever

Took a while to find this thread again, but thought people may be interested in a post by HUGO on how they may be implementing this scheme this winter.

It's all still to be confirmed, but gives sn indication to the working out process:

https://mailchi.mp/hugoenergyapp/pricecap1-17355225?e=9fdae81f23

It'll be interesting to see how Octopus and the other big suppliers operate it.

Chrysalis

QrizB said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yet they expect a much higher take-up this time round - perhaps they're hoping the wider audience will outweigh the ones who'll not think it worth the effort.

I participated last time and my total returns over the entire winter were under £2.

I'm planning on participating this time, too. It's not the money, it's the challenge.

Not sure what I made I forgot, I dont think it even got credited but is sitting in limbo somewhere, I didnt abuse it like deliberately using energy in proceeding hours, I just took part naturally to see what would happen.

I will do the same this year if I am offered the chance to.

michaels

Better yet Hugo suggests that if they can read your export mpan then they will pay you for export so those with battery can benefit in a sensible way given that the in day adjustment has been removed.