Demand Flexibility Service 2023 (and beyond!)

michaels

QrizB said:

michaels said:

It is a shame they can not offer similar sized payments (£3 per kwh) for people exporting (who would not normally do so).  Surely in terms of grid support additonal exports are equivalent to imports and the data is available from smart meters in exactly the same way.

From energy-stats:

Fun Fact! During September 2021 export prices on Outgoing Agile peaked at £2.38 per unit.

https://energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-outgoing-export-southern-england/

Still less than the £3 available for negawatts.  Plus outgoing agile is only available to those:
a) With Octopus
b) not on a TOU tariff which most battery owners are likely to be on

So not that helpful in terms of taking actions that will help balance the grid.

EG
Normally used 5kwh during a target reduction period, reduce this to 1kwh, get paid £12
Normally use 0kwh during a target reduction period (using battery), 'reduce' this to a 4kwh export, get paid £0 despite having the same benefit to the grid.

ArbitraryRandom

matt_drummer said:

It may be that the in day adjustment period was designed and timed to encourage use during those three hours.

One way to reduce the effect of excessive consumption during the in day adjustment period is to extend it's length.

If the IDA period was extended to 12 hours as an example that would water down the excessive use by a factor of 4.

To get a payout based on saving 20 kWh you would now have to consume 240 kWh during the IDA instead of just 60 kWh in 3 hours.

The cost of the extra consumption would outweigh the reward unless the extra was totally electricity that would have been consumed in any case. Maybe this would prevent needless electricity consumption?

I'm not sure how the IDA would be used to influence the saving in a meaningful way if it is longer.

Maybe I haven't thought it through enough?

Not on the same scale potential 'earnings' wise, but similar to the model you have suggested, OVO have been operating a scheme they call Power Move for (I believe) 2 months. 

Put simply, the customer is asked to use no more than 12.5% of their daily usage during a fixed window (currently between 16:00-19:00) Monday to Friday; in return they get £10 credit a month. 

I understand the scheme runs in 3 month periods, so I assume the hours (and possibly the target energy use) will change each quarter in line with changing patterns of use/demand and supply. 

matt_drummer

I think the rewards need to be fairly generous to attract widespread interest.

I can't see many people disrupting their routines for a few pence a day or every time there is a savings event,

The first incarnation was probably too generous and it sounds like the current plans have gone too far the other way.

markin

It is work, it should pay at least min wage.


Is the any report on if it was in any way value for money for NG, Or are we to guess it was not with the changes they are making.

QrizB

ArbitraryRandom said:

Put simply, the customer is asked to use no more than 12.5% of their daily usage during a fixed window (currently between 16:00-19:00) Monday to Friday; in return they get £10 credit a month.

Those are the same hours as the evening peak period on Octopus Agile. According to the Agile pricing page, energy suppliers face additional charges for energy used during that period.

See:

https://octopus.energy/blog/agile-pricing-explained/

(It's a lengthy blog, and the explanation of the additional charges that apply from 3pm to 7pm is quite far down.)

ArbitraryRandom

matt_drummer said:

I think the rewards need to be fairly generous to attract widespread interest.

I can't see many people disrupting their routines for a few pence a day or every time there is a savings event,

The first incarnation was probably too generous and it sounds like the current plans have gone too far the other way.

To be clear, the Ovo scheme isn't the same as the one being discussed on this thread - it just follows a model for reducing use similar to the one you proposed. 

And I disagree the rewards need to be significantly higher than the rate set by ovo; I'd say they could be a little higher perhaps, but it's not a huge disruption given it's not encouraging 0 use during the time period, rather no more than 12% of the total daily use. Being able to earn more than your normal energy bill seems excessive. 

At £10 per month then they're roughly covering the standing charge for the user on those days (c.50p a day for an average of 21 days a month = c.£11)

matt_drummer

ArbitraryRandom said:

matt_drummer said:

I think the rewards need to be fairly generous to attract widespread interest.

I can't see many people disrupting their routines for a few pence a day or every time there is a savings event,

The first incarnation was probably too generous and it sounds like the current plans have gone too far the other way.

To be clear, the Ovo scheme isn't the same as the one being discussed on this thread - it just follows a model for reducing use similar to the one you proposed. 

And I disagree the rewards need to be significantly higher than the rate set by ovo; I'd say they could be a little higher perhaps, but it's not a huge disruption given it's not encouraging 0 use during the time period, rather no more than 12% of the total daily use. Being able to earn more than your normal energy bill seems excessive. 

At £10 per month then they're roughly covering the standing charge for the user on those days (c.50p a day for an average of 21 days a month = c.£11)

I was referring to the schemes like Octopus savings session, the ones being discussed in the thread, not the OVO scheme you mention, that is why I didn't quote you.

Octopus savings sessions and similar ones do require disrupting routines to gain any reward. If the rewards are relatively small then I predict lower interest in taking part.

The OVO scheme you refer to sounds good and I agree, the rewards are high enough to attract attention.

I wouldn't be rewarded with £10 a month under the Octopus savings sessions with the new rules, it would amount to a few pence for each session.

Krakkkers

How do i take part in this this winter? I am with EON next and have smart meters, do i have to apply?

MultiFuelBurner

Krakkkers said:

How do i take part in this this winter? I am with EON next and have smart meters, do i have to apply?

If you are with Eon Next then last year they ran their scheme with what appeared to be random selection and not for all.

You should make sure you have marketing turned on and half hourly reads set in your profile for your smart meter.

Other than that I would.move to someone like Octopus who allow all with smart meters to take part automatically.

TheElectricCow

ArbitraryRandom said:

matt_drummer said:

It may be that the in day adjustment period was designed and timed to encourage use during those three hours.

One way to reduce the effect of excessive consumption during the in day adjustment period is to extend it's length.

If the IDA period was extended to 12 hours as an example that would water down the excessive use by a factor of 4.

To get a payout based on saving 20 kWh you would now have to consume 240 kWh during the IDA instead of just 60 kWh in 3 hours.

The cost of the extra consumption would outweigh the reward unless the extra was totally electricity that would have been consumed in any case. Maybe this would prevent needless electricity consumption?

I'm not sure how the IDA would be used to influence the saving in a meaningful way if it is longer.

Maybe I haven't thought it through enough?

Not on the same scale potential 'earnings' wise, but similar to the model you have suggested, OVO have been operating a scheme they call Power Move for (I believe) 2 months. 

Put simply, the customer is asked to use no more than 12.5% of their daily usage during a fixed window (currently between 16:00-19:00) Monday to Friday; in return they get £10 credit a month. 

I understand the scheme runs in 3 month periods, so I assume the hours (and possibly the target energy use) will change each quarter in line with changing patterns of use/demand and supply. 

Hadn’t heard of the Ovo scheme before but it’s certainly an interesting idea, I think it’s great we’re starting to see more ToU options emerging from places other than Octopus to bring in a bit more healthy competition.

Krakkkers said:

How do i take part in this this winter? I am with EON next and have smart meters, do i have to apply?

Too early to say for sure, as mentioned above last year Eon operated on a seemingly random selection process where consumers had to be invited to take part, but they would only potentially be able to receive an invitation if marketing was enabled on their account. 

They may do a similar thing again this year or they could open up the scheme further to more customers. If guaranteed acceptance onto the scheme is important to you, the safest bet is to move over to Octopus in plenty of time before the events begin, as they’re presumably the most likely supplier to run open to all savings sessions again as they did before.