Gas Meter Still Increasing Whilst Gas Isolated (Siemens/Landis+Gyr E6S)

chris_n

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Spoonie_Turtle

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Are gas meters wired into the mains though?  I thought that was the whole reason they have batteries, and why electricity meters don't have this problem.

Phones4Chris

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Gas meters are NOT coupled to mains power!

MeteredOut

Phones4Chris said:

FreeBear said:

Phones4Chris said:

Gerry1 said:

Phones4Chris said:

Also, I think you've missed the point about the difficulty of doing what you've suggested with Lithium batteries whether it's a Smart or older Digital meter. Never Mind. And of course your DAB+ radio does not use Lithium batteries!

@Phones4Chris Nope, it has a 1900mAh Lithium battery.  I'm not a battery expert and the radio battery is obviously rechargeable rather than primary.  However, given that a battery delivering a voltage above the minimum is critical to the correct operation of a gas smart meter and to prevent it malfunctioning, it clearly requires a monitoring and telemetry function to be built in.

Given all the anti-tampering and the other highly complex functionality, the extra cost would be trivial when compared to all the predictable problems caused by under or overcharging.

@Gerry1 You said you're not a battery expert. Please go away and look at the discharge characteristics of Lithium Batteries compared to Alkaline, NiCd & NiMH, therein lies the difficulty, you have certainly missed the point. By the time the 'b' appears it's really too late.

Lithium Thionyl Chloride batteries have a very stable and flat discharge curve for most of their operating life. Voltage drops of very quickly at the end. Depending on load profile, this could be as little as 3% remaining charge, or as much as 15%. A typical gas meter will have a battery designed for a 10 or even 20 year life. So you have a window of 4-8 months to signal low battery (and yes, smart meters can send a signal).

Form - https://tadiranbatteries.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Technical-Brochure-LTC-Batteries.pdf

Not sure how you derive your 4-8months, especially as others connected with the industry have frequently stated a 10 year life for these meters, not 20! And judging by the number of reports we see round here, if they do send signals, as another poster remarked, do the suppliers take any notice? We guess not, again judging by consumers' reports. Even when the consumer has noticed either the 'b' or complete lack of display, suppliers aren't rushing out to replace the meter. I don't recall seeing any reports of meters in that state still sending data and people frequently complaining about estimated bills as a consequence, often higher that their expected usage.
I still say the current design is abysmal, consumers deserve better, end of life reliability of these things isn't acceptable.

In my case, I pointed out the 'b' (and the C, d, and E) multiple times to EDF. Not once did I even receive a response related to it even when I pointed out it might suggest a battery issue that could account for the incrementing-whilst-isolated.

If its not on their script, they won't comment on it; might as well have been chatting to a bot.

Phones4Chris

@MeteredOut If you are still getting nowhere with EDF, time to raise a Formal Complaint!

MeteredOut

Phones4Chris said:

@MeteredOut If you are still getting nowhere with EDF, time to raise a Formal Complaint!

I'm waiting on that, as I really need/want to get into the summer months, when my heating is off, so that I can show the true difference between what usage will be this year and what it has been recorded as previously.

So, I'm being a pest with them, pointing out that they're ignoring me and the ombudsman, that I'm not able to move to another supplier etc, but will likely hold out until June.

chris_n

Spoonie_Turtle said:

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Are gas meters wired into the mains though?  I thought that was the whole reason they have batteries, and why electricity meters don't have this problem.

I have seen many reports of electricity meters failing because the battery has gone, so while maybe not applicable directly to this thread the problem still exists where it shouldn't. 

Gerry1

chris_n said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Are gas meters wired into the mains though?  I thought that was the whole reason they have batteries, and why electricity meters don't have this problem.

I have seen many reports of electricity meters failing because the battery has gone, so while maybe not applicable directly to this thread the problem still exists where it shouldn't. 

Can you link to a few of these reports, please?

MeteredOut

chris_n said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Are gas meters wired into the mains though?  I thought that was the whole reason they have batteries, and why electricity meters don't have this problem.

I have seen many reports of electricity meters failing because the battery has gone, so while maybe not applicable directly to this thread the problem still exists where it shouldn't. 

I've seen many reports of smart meters not working when people were referring to IHDs. I'm never seen one verified/verifiable report of a electricity smart meter failing due to a battery.

Phones4Chris

chris_n said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

chris_n said:

I find it extremely strange that a device coupled to mains power uses a non rechargeable battery to keep it alive. Surely using a battery or capacitor connected to the incoming non metered side would do a better job. When the power fails write the registers into non volatile memory then read the registers on start up, all backed up by proper checksums etc.

Are gas meters wired into the mains though?  I thought that was the whole reason they have batteries, and why electricity meters don't have this problem.

I have seen many reports of electricity meters failing because the battery has gone, so while maybe not applicable directly to this thread the problem still exists where it shouldn't. 

Really? Are you sure that these aren't reports from people that don't know the difference between an IHD and THE Smart Meter. I don't know of a single Electricity meter that has a battery but willing to be educated!
Edit: Well, I've been educating myself. I thought it a good idea to go checking on something that's not at all obvious and discovered it's not what was thought. A Lithium battery can be used to maintain the RTC in the absence of power. BUT a battery failure would be a failure mode that is not at all likely in normal operation, and such a failure if it occurred is unlikely to be noticed by an end user except perhaps in a situation where there are persistent and long term power cuts. The probability of that combination of events is vanishingly small.
I still maintain, any reports seen are where end users don' appreciate the difference between the IHD and the Smart Electric Meter.