Gas Meter Still Increasing Whilst Gas Isolated (Siemens/Landis+Gyr E6S)

MeteredOut

BobT36 said:

chris_n said:

You can draw as much as you want through the length of pipe but the only bit that should be measured is the tiny bit between the valve and the meter, about 10cm in my installation. 

Exactly, what a stupid argument they have. If the valve is off so there's nothing INCOMING then the max amount of flow that would be measured is JUST the bit that may be "hanging around" (if that's a thing) in-between the isolation valve and the measuring device of the meter, surely. 
Everything AFTER the meter (between that and the boiler or whatever) is irrelevant as that would have already been measured since it's already passed the sensor..
Unless I'm being completely daft. 

I explained that to EDF too - they simply could not understand it, which is why I went down the "pipe would have to be hundreds of metres" route. We have to remember the customer service people we speak to have very limited knowledge of the energy sector - they work from scripts, though I still can't understand how, in my case, they said it was their technical engineers who provided this reasoning.

I've heard nothing back from EDF since I chased them 10 days ago asking what they're going to do now that the OFMAT has proven my meter was faulty. Silence.

BobT36

MeteredOut said:

BobT36 said:

chris_n said:

You can draw as much as you want through the length of pipe but the only bit that should be measured is the tiny bit between the valve and the meter, about 10cm in my installation. 

Exactly, what a stupid argument they have. If the valve is off so there's nothing INCOMING then the max amount of flow that would be measured is JUST the bit that may be "hanging around" (if that's a thing) in-between the isolation valve and the measuring device of the meter, surely. 
Everything AFTER the meter (between that and the boiler or whatever) is irrelevant as that would have already been measured since it's already passed the sensor..
Unless I'm being completely daft. 

I explained that to EDF too - they simply could not understand it, which is why I went down the "pipe would have to be hundreds of metres" route. We have to remember the customer service people we speak to have very limited knowledge of the energy sector - they work from scripts, though I still can't understand how, in my case, they said it was their technical engineers who provided this reasoning.

I've heard nothing back from EDF since I chased them 10 days ago asking what they're going to do now that the OFMAT has proven my meter was faulty. Silence.

And "So faulty it couldn't be measured", too. 

Definitely press them on the fact that it WAS indeed that faulty, and their failure to ascertain that in a timely manner caused you xyz damages. 

Phones4Chris

Grizzlebeard said:

Re low battery warning.

Would prob add to cost and complexity.

(Following thoughts are off the top of my head. I retired from electronics ~30 years ago before this gee-whizz tech had been developed. My brain-battery is also running on empty so I willingly concede to anyone who corrects me with better knowledge)

I assume they use Lithium or similar primary cells which maintain a fairly constant terminal voltage (@ low load) until it drops quite suddenly at end of life.

Actual end of life point is quite hard to predict because of manufacturing tolerances.

dv/dt detection on it's own miight be to late, so a low discharge backup standby might be required for the SOS call.

Or they could use Coulomb counting to squeeze a decent amount of E-juice out without false go/no-go detection.

Predicting end of battery life too soon is very expensive because it means sending out Engineers to change a lot of meters unnecessarily. Cheaper to allow the tank to run till it's totally empty and shug shoulders at consumer inconvenience....

(Edit--

P.S. for all I know the latest generation of meters might already be doing all this so it's "only" the millions of legacy meters that are still a problem.)

Just been catching up on this thread so thought I'd chuck in my tuppence on this display issue.
To do what Gerry has suggested would IMHO add to cost and complexity.
It looks to be simply an 8 digit LCD type display, so to show a message as Gerry suggested it would need a more complex display, that's leaving aside the additional code in the firmware. It would be simple enough though to make it display 8A77ER4 - except I can't type the digits as they would actually display, but I'm sure you get the idea!
This would involve a simple change to the on-board firmware to make it display that rather than a lower case b.
I would have thought that could be done on existing hardware (but I'm not thinking retrofit, just ongoing production with existing hardware).

Even so, the point about being able to detect that state of a Lithium battery before problems start occurring are very valid, it's not going to solve the reading error problem as it's not going to be reliable even though it's a clearer warning, the meter would still need to be changed promptly. 
Engaging brain, I though perhaps a backup Lithium battery could be a solution with some modified electronics. Ok this would involve a hardware change and an additional battery.
But the cost of this would be so minimal, for the sake of improved confidence in reliability and reduced cost to the industry of dealing with complaints and issues when these current meters fail because of battery problems, I would have thought it worth it.
The circuit design would be such that when the primary battery has run out of life, the display switches to give the warning (perhaps alternating with a reading) and the Backup battery is switched in allowing a (small) period of time for the meter to be replaced. Quality Lithium batteries that are not being discharged (ie only a small self-discharge) will last longer than 10 years, so I feel this a workable solution for short term backup.
Thoughts? @Grizzlebeard @Gerry1

Qyburn

chris_n said:

You can draw as much as you want through the length of pipe but the only bit that should be measured is the tiny bit between the valve and the meter, about 10cm in my installation. 

If you're estimating volumes inside pipework remember to factor in pressure. Is gas metered in cu.m at standard atmospheric pressure, or cu.m at the regulated pressure?  Where in the chain is the pressure reducer/regulator, is it before or after the valve mentioned?

Zandoni

Gerry1 said:

It's absurd to claim that gas can flow through a meter when the shut off valve is closed.  The volume of gas between the valve and the measuring device is probably about the size of a Pepsi can (330ml).

Let's be generous and assume it's a big bottle instead (3.0l).  Let's also assume there's no external air pressure and all the gas escapes.  The meter would increment by only 3.0l, i.e. just 0.003 m³.

It is absurd, when I used to test meters closing the valve stopped the meter instantly. 

Gerry1

Zandoni said:

Gerry1 said:

It's absurd to claim that gas can flow through a meter when the shut off valve is closed.  The volume of gas between the valve and the measuring device is probably about the size of a Pepsi can (330ml).

Let's be generous and assume it's a big bottle instead (3.0l).  Let's also assume there's no external air pressure and all the gas escapes.  The meter would increment by only 3.0l, i.e. just 0.003 m³.

It is absurd, when I used to test meters closing the valve stopped the meter instantly. 

Using their daft logic, you'd get a sink full of water after turning off the kitchen tap !

https://assets-large.qssupplies.co.uk/QS-V58826_3_lg.jpg

Gerry1

Phones4Chris said:

Grizzlebeard said:

Re low battery warning.

Would prob add to cost and complexity.

(Following thoughts are off the top of my head. I retired from electronics ~30 years ago before this gee-whizz tech had been developed. My brain-battery is also running on empty so I willingly concede to anyone who corrects me with better knowledge)

I assume they use Lithium or similar primary cells which maintain a fairly constant terminal voltage (@ low load) until it drops quite suddenly at end of life.

Actual end of life point is quite hard to predict because of manufacturing tolerances.

dv/dt detection on it's own miight be to late, so a low discharge backup standby might be required for the SOS call.

Or they could use Coulomb counting to squeeze a decent amount of E-juice out without false go/no-go detection.

Predicting end of battery life too soon is very expensive because it means sending out Engineers to change a lot of meters unnecessarily. Cheaper to allow the tank to run till it's totally empty and shug shoulders at consumer inconvenience....

(Edit--

P.S. for all I know the latest generation of meters might already be doing all this so it's "only" the millions of legacy meters that are still a problem.)

Just been catching up on this thread so thought I'd chuck in my tuppence on this display issue.
To do what Gerry has suggested would IMHO add to cost and complexity.
It looks to be simply an 8 digit LCD type display, so to show a message as Gerry suggested it would need a more complex display, that's leaving aside the additional code in the firmware. It would be simple enough though to make it display 8A77ER4 - except I can't type the digits as they would actually display, but I'm sure you get the idea!
This would involve a simple change to the on-board firmware to make it display that rather than a lower case b.
I would have thought that could be done on existing hardware (but I'm not thinking retrofit, just ongoing production with existing hardware).

Even so, the point about being able to detect that state of a Lithium battery before problems start occurring are very valid, it's not going to solve the reading error problem as it's not going to be reliable even though it's a clearer warning, the meter would still need to be changed promptly. 
Engaging brain, I though perhaps a backup Lithium battery could be a solution with some modified electronics. Ok this would involve a hardware change and an additional battery.
But the cost of this would be so minimal, for the sake of improved confidence in reliability and reduced cost to the industry of dealing with complaints and issues when these current meters fail because of battery problems, I would have thought it worth it.
The circuit design would be such that when the primary battery has run out of life, the display switches to give the warning (perhaps alternating with a reading) and the Backup battery is switched in allowing a (small) period of time for the meter to be replaced. Quality Lithium batteries that are not being discharged (ie only a small self-discharge) will last longer than 10 years, so I feel this a workable solution for short term backup.
Thoughts? @Grizzlebeard @Gerry1

@PhonesforChris It seems to be quite an ancient meter that's poorly designed so it's unlikely to be updated significantly.  But there's no reason why meter readers couldn't affix a sticker warning the consumer to call their supplier immediately if 'b' is displayed.

With new meters it would be trivial to design in a 'more bars the better' battery status icon and a Plain English warning message.  My £40 DAB+ radio has both of those features (and a full colour screen as well) and all at a fraction of the cost of a so-called smart meter.  No need for the complexity and unreliability of two batteries, just set a Low Battery flag when smart readings are sent.

And before the shills start complaining, I'm fully aware that the OP's meter isn't smart but I'm talking general design principles.

chris_n

Qyburn said:

chris_n said:

You can draw as much as you want through the length of pipe but the only bit that should be measured is the tiny bit between the valve and the meter, about 10cm in my installation. 

If you're estimating volumes inside pipework remember to factor in pressure. Is gas metered in cu.m at standard atmospheric pressure, or cu.m at the regulated pressure?  Where in the chain is the pressure reducer/regulator, is it before or after the valve mentioned?

And how much higher is the mains supply before the regulator, it would have to be extremely high (to the point of it being liquid) to make any significant difference inside the space of the pipework contained in the average meter box.

Bendo

Smart meters send an alert to the supplier when the battery is low. Whether suppliers do anything with those alerts is another matter.

BobT36

Gerry1 said:

Zandoni said:

Gerry1 said:

It's absurd to claim that gas can flow through a meter when the shut off valve is closed.  The volume of gas between the valve and the measuring device is probably about the size of a Pepsi can (330ml).

Let's be generous and assume it's a big bottle instead (3.0l).  Let's also assume there's no external air pressure and all the gas escapes.  The meter would increment by only 3.0l, i.e. just 0.003 m³.

It is absurd, when I used to test meters closing the valve stopped the meter instantly. 

Using their daft logic, you'd get a sink full of water after turning off the kitchen tap !

https://assets-large.qssupplies.co.uk/QS-V58826_3_lg.jpg

And measure all that at the meter, despite the water having already passed..