Changing unused 'council owned' gate?

gazfocus

Section62 said:

gazfocus said:

I guess the question then would be, once an application by the resident(s) to put a gate on an alleyway that the council do not own, is there a provision to reverse this and say to the council ‘thanks but no thanks’ especially if the land ultimately isn’t theirs?

The council could remove the gate if they deem there is no longer a need for it, or if the original landowner appears and asks them to remove it.

If all the residents who have a right to use the path agreed they didn't want the gate any more then the council may well deem it unnecessary and remove it, but if one wanted it kept then they are likely to have to go with the minority view.

If I've guessed right and the alleyway is a RoW that several of the neighbours have the benefit of (at least in theory) then you may have a real headache dealing with it.  Giving up a RoW usually means having your deeds altered, and in the case of properties with a mortgage, the mortgage company would have to agree as well.  If the owner of the land can't be traced then there is nobody to act on their behalf to accept the giving up of the RoW.  Legally it can be messy... hence the fudge of people simply deciding not to use the RoW and allowing the council to gate it off.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, it’s very helpful and given me a lot to think about, and a better idea of the questions to ask, for example, finding out who has entitlement to the gate access (ie if it’s just the property I’m buying plus our next door neighbour, that will be much easier to deal with vs an entire row of 5 houses). 

theoretica

gazfocus said:

theoretica said:

This is website is good for showing land registry lines - is that alleyway on it?  Or take an informed guess on which property may mention it in the deeds about right of way and access.

 https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search

Have just had a look at that... what a fab tool. 
Unfortunately, the alleyway does not appear to be within the boundary of either property. I've uploaded the results (the lines are a bit off but you can see what I mean). 

If it is a ROW it looks like it only goes to that one property - centre bottom of the plan.  What does that look like in satellite - might be worth getting their deeds?  There is another bit on the plan which doesn't have a LR boundary - starting about 4 doors up and going round and nearly joining up - what does that look like in reality?

p00hsticks

Section62 said:

gazfocus said:

The council website says to contact the local councillor for the area to apply for a gate so I've sent him a quick email to ask about the likelihood of getting permission to change the gate at my expense. If he says 'no chance' then fair enough and no need to bother the neighbour with it, but if he says it's a possibility, it's definitely a conflab worth having.

From the plan I suspect there's a good chance the neighbour has moved their fence to incorporate what was a shared accessway into their own garden.

Yes, I was thinking the same - the two streetviews suggest that at some point the next door neighbours have removed the original gate at the front of the drive, knocked down their side wall and (possibly) put up a replacement gate further back in order to provide access for a car to park at the front of their property

gazfocus

theoretica said:

gazfocus said:

theoretica said:

This is website is good for showing land registry lines - is that alleyway on it?  Or take an informed guess on which property may mention it in the deeds about right of way and access.

 https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search

Have just had a look at that... what a fab tool. 
Unfortunately, the alleyway does not appear to be within the boundary of either property. I've uploaded the results (the lines are a bit off but you can see what I mean). 

If it is a ROW it looks like it only goes to that one property - centre bottom of the plan.  What does that look like in satellite - might be worth getting their deeds?  There is another bit on the plan which doesn't have a LR boundary - starting about 4 doors up and going round and nearly joining up - what does that look like in reality?

This is what I’m going to check out when I go to the house again. The lines on the plan are a bit out of sync so it should all be shifted so that the lines match the outlines of the houses if that makes sense, then it would show the alley way being neither mine or the neighbours. 

My suspicion is that the other bit on the plan that’s 4 doors up is the ROW for the garden access for that row of 4 terraced houses, where the bit next next to the house that I’m buying would be the garden access to my house and possibly next door. 

My concern is that next door appear (from Google earth view) to have either removed their fence entirely or just been unable to replace it when it deteriorated and so I’ve no way of knowing if the land was originally ROW for them too, so will have to assume that it was. 

If they are using the entire land as part of their garden, it might upset them if I move in and start creating an issue which is why I’d like to know in advance. 

I have already advised our solicitor that this needs querying with the seller as well. 

GrubbyGirl_2

If it only serves you and your neighbour I think I might be tempted to approach the council and see if they fancy selling you that patch of land. Most councils are hard up so you might get a favourable response. You’ll at least get an idea of what covenants are in that bit. 

markin

Has a house on the other street posably grabbed some alleyway, do other houses have a difrent alleyway access?

Looking at other council gates in the area will tell you if it's the same type or not, but I suspect the house next door is trying to grab it all.

A call to the council asking who the key holder is for that gate will quickly say if it is there's and if next door had a key. 

How long have next door lived there, under 10 years I would guess.

gazfocus

markin said:

Has a house on the other street posably grabbed some alleyway, do other houses have a difrent alleyway access?

Looking at other council gates in the area will tell you if it's the same type or not, but I suspect the house next door is trying to grab it all.

A call to the council asking who the key holder is for that gate will quickly say if it is there's and if next door had a key. 

How long have next door lived there, under 10 years I would guess.

Next door was purchased in 2021 so a little over 2 years. None of the other houses on the street appear to have an alley way, they all have access to their own gardens with a fence down the middle of what perhaps would have been an alle way, having said that, the run of 4 terraced houses next to the house I am buying are the only terraced houses in the street/immediate area.

It does look as though it's private land rather than council owned when looking at the rest of the area, so think the plausible circumstance is that somebody applied to have an alley gate installed due to some form of anti social behaviour.

gazfocus

Just thought I’d update the thread in case any one has this type of query in the future. 

I reached out to the councillor for the area where the house we are buying is, and he kindly passed my query on to the correct department. 

I got a reply today to basically say that the gate  does indeed belong to the council and as such may not be altered, adjusted or modified in any way. Their reason for this is because “any unauthorised adjustment may affect the security of the gate”. Fair enough. 

They said that the gate was installed using a Public Space Protection Order and was supported by councillors and a public consultation period. 

They also said that once we own the house, we can put forward a written representation to have the gate removed which will be considered when the next review takes place (though they have no indication of what I need to put in the written representation or when the next review takes place). 

I think my best bet would be to speak to the neighbour once I’ve completed on the house and try and get them on side, then work out what needs to be put in writing to request that the gates are removed. 

ashe

gazfocus said:

Just thought I’d update the thread in case any one has this type of query in the future. 

I reached out to the councillor for the area where the house we are buying is, and he kindly passed my query on to the correct department. 

I got a reply today to basically say that the gate  does indeed belong to the council and as such may not be altered, adjusted or modified in any way. Their reason for this is because “any unauthorised adjustment may affect the security of the gate”. Fair enough. 

They said that the gate was installed using a Public Space Protection Order and was supported by councillors and a public consultation period. 

They also said that once we own the house, we can put forward a written representation to have the gate removed which will be considered when the next review takes place (though they have no indication of what I need to put in the written representation or when the next review takes place). 

I think my best bet would be to speak to the neighbour once I’ve completed on the house and try and get them on side, then work out what needs to be put in writing to request that the gates are removed. 

Just bear in mind they won't have done it for a laugh. Why don't you ask the councillor / department for details of the consultation so you can see the comments made and reason behind it - people obviously supported it going up so was to fix a problem 

Section62

gazfocus said:

I got a reply today to basically say that the gate  does indeed belong to the council and as such may not be altered, adjusted or modified in any way. Their reason for this is because “any unauthorised adjustment may affect the security of the gate”. Fair enough. 

They said that the gate was installed using a Public Space Protection Order and was supported by councillors and a public consultation period.

More or less as I suggested earlier in the thread - where the authority does something which is related to regulatory or enforcement type activities they have to be very careful about delegating permisison to others to do what they have a legal responsibility for.

gazfocus said:

They also said that once we own the house, we can put forward a written representation to have the gate removed which will be considered when the next review takes place (though they have no indication of what I need to put in the written representation or when the next review takes place). 

I think my best bet would be to speak to the neighbour once I’ve completed on the house and try and get them on side, then work out what needs to be put in writing to request that the gates are removed. 

I'd tread really carefully with this.  I'm fairly confident this alleway used to be a 'U' shape around all four properties in the block, rather than just serving yours and the neighbours.

To me the use of a Public Space Protection Order suggests there was more to this than just problems with an alleyway between two houses.

If so there may be some latent hostility between the neighbours over their rights, and you innocently asking about having the status quo changed may reignite things.