WASPI ‘victory’

Marcon

BlackKnightMonty said:

Marcon said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Marcon said:

FIREDreamer said:

If you had 5 part time jobs, each paying £10k per annum, as each pays less than £12,570 - would any NI be deducted at all?

See section 2 of https://www.moneydonut.co.uk/tax/national-insurance/essential-guide-to-national-insurance (a very good guide to a lot of NI-related questions).

“ Employees with more than one job pay NICs for each job earning over the Primary Threshold.”

ie they don’t.

That could be a good wheeze for some people!

This is where a digital currency starts to become really useful.

All your income can be tracked.

And all your spending.

And all your tax payment.

Why do you need a digital currency to do that? A spreadsheet works fine for most of us.

This isn’t about YOU tracking your money/spend/taxes!

It is according to your post:

All your income can be tracked.

And all your spending.

And all your tax payment.

Grumpy_chap

Marcon said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Marcon said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

FIREDreamer said:

Marcon said:

FIREDreamer said:

If you had 5 part time jobs, each paying £10k per annum, as each pays less than £12,570 - would any NI be deducted at all?

See section 2 of https://www.moneydonut.co.uk/tax/national-insurance/essential-guide-to-national-insurance (a very good guide to a lot of NI-related questions).

“ Employees with more than one job pay NICs for each job earning over the Primary Threshold.”

ie they don’t.

That could be a good wheeze for some people!

This is where a digital currency starts to become really useful.

All your income can be tracked.

And all your spending.

And all your tax payment.

Why do you need a digital currency to do that? A spreadsheet works fine for most of us.

This isn’t about YOU tracking your money/spend/taxes!

It is according to your post:

All your income can be tracked.

And all your spending.

And all your tax payment.

I think that was another conspiracy theory - suggesting Government or some corporation would be tracking everything 

Qyburn

MarzipanCrumble said:

What I think is more scandalous is that the old SP and the new SP will not rise at the same rate so that all on the old SP will fall behind quite considerably as the years progress.

Doesn't the Triple Lock apply to both? So they both get the same increases.

Flugelhorn

Qyburn said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

What I think is more scandalous is that the old SP and the new SP will not rise at the same rate so that all on the old SP will fall behind quite considerably as the years progress.

Doesn't the Triple Lock apply to both? So they both get the same increases.

correct - the rate is the same but the absolute amount will always be smaller leading to an increasing gap https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53082530#:~:text=In April 2024, the link,full, old basic state pension

Notepad_Phil

Flugelhorn said:b

Qyburn said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

What I think is more scandalous is that the old SP and the new SP will not rise at the same rate so that all on the old SP will fall behind quite considerably as the years progress.

Doesn't the Triple Lock apply to both? So they both get the same increases.

correct - the rate is the same but the absolute amount will always be smaller leading to an increasing gap https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53082530#:~:text=In April 2024, the link,full, old basic state pension

But the percentage gap will remain the same. So seems fair to me.

xylophone

So they both get the same increases.

Let's think about a pensioner on the old scheme who at 5/4/ 23 had total SP of £203.85 comprising

Basic State Pension  £156.20

Additional State Pension £47.65

In April 2024, his Basic SP goes up by the highest  of increase in prices/earnings/ 2.5%. (Triple Lock)

His ASP goes up by the increase in prices.

Thus his Basic becomes  £169.50 (earnings link 8.5%)

His ASP becomes  £50.84 (CPI link 6.7%)

His total SP is now  £220.34


Now a pensioner on the new scheme with a full NSP of £203.85 at 5/4/23.

The NSP increases in 24/25  under the Triple Lock by 8.5%

His pension is now  £221.20

If a new state pensioner has a full NSP and a "protected payment", the PP element will increase by CPI.

Pat38493

BlackKnightMonty said:

Pat38493 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

ex-pat_scot said:

My NI on salary around the £100k mark (after whopping pension contributions, to keep out of the high marginal tax rate) is around £6,400 pa.
At 35 years of this it would give c£225,000 total NI contributions. This is rather unrealistic, but serves to show how modest even a high earner's contributions are, when set against the broad equivalent annuity cost of the SP at around £250,000 and also the other notional social benefits such as NHS, welfare etc.
(My actual NI contributions to date are not much more than £100,000 for 33 full years of contribution and a few partial years - I wasn't a v high earner until later in my career).

You’ve nailed the UK fiscal paradox!

Is there a chart like this that shows the situation over people's entire lifetime rather than annual snapshots which this seems to be?

This also neatly highlights that the state pension is considered as a benefit rather than a "right" as it's clearly being considered as a benefits in this chart.  I know a few state pensioners who would be horrified if you suggested that they were on benefits  

No. This is ONS’s chart. All households, All taxes, All benefits, All services.

Forget the terminology; this is pure money in and money out.

Yes, but what I meant was that this cannot be a chart that shows lifetime contribution per person as they split the category into "retired" and "non retired" - you cannot be retired for your entire life, and the retired people are showing as 90% o them drawing more money than they pay in - this indicates that for example for 2020, this is the net contribution of people during 2020, and not over their whole life.

It doesn't change the point you are trying to make as this graph adequately backs it up - I would just also be interested to know what pecent of people are net contributors over their entire life, (including childhood which I suspect is excluded from the graph).

molerat

xylophone said:

So they both get the same increases.

Let's think about a pensioner on the old scheme who at 5/4/ 23 had total SP of £203.85 comprising

Basic State Pension  £156.20

Additional State Pension £47.65

In April 2024, his Basic SP goes up by the highest  of increase in prices/earnings/ 2.5%. (Triple Lock)

His ASP goes up by the increase in prices.

Thus his Basic becomes  £169.50 (earnings link 8.5%)

His ASP becomes  £50.84 (CPI link 6.7%)

His total SP is now  £220.34


Now a pensioner on the new scheme with a full NSP of £203.85 at 5/4/23.

The NSP increases in 24/25  under the Triple Lock by 8.5%

His pension is now  £221.20

If a new state pensioner has a full NSP and a "protected payment", the PP element will increase by CPI.

But when are we going to stop comparing apples to oranges ? 

Should a woman with 10 years contributions and 20 years child benefit who retired before April 2010 get :

£82.21 made up to £93.60 cat B 

or 

receive what a post April 2010 retiree would receive with precisely the same record, £156.20

or 

£174.73 as a post April 2016 retiree would receive ?

MattMattMattUK

Pat38493 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Pat38493 said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

ex-pat_scot said:

My NI on salary around the £100k mark (after whopping pension contributions, to keep out of the high marginal tax rate) is around £6,400 pa.
At 35 years of this it would give c£225,000 total NI contributions. This is rather unrealistic, but serves to show how modest even a high earner's contributions are, when set against the broad equivalent annuity cost of the SP at around £250,000 and also the other notional social benefits such as NHS, welfare etc.
(My actual NI contributions to date are not much more than £100,000 for 33 full years of contribution and a few partial years - I wasn't a v high earner until later in my career).

You’ve nailed the UK fiscal paradox!

Is there a chart like this that shows the situation over people's entire lifetime rather than annual snapshots which this seems to be?

This also neatly highlights that the state pension is considered as a benefit rather than a "right" as it's clearly being considered as a benefits in this chart.  I know a few state pensioners who would be horrified if you suggested that they were on benefits  

No. This is ONS’s chart. All households, All taxes, All benefits, All services.

Forget the terminology; this is pure money in and money out.

Yes, but what I meant was that this cannot be a chart that shows lifetime contribution per person as they split the category into "retired" and "non retired" - you cannot be retired for your entire life, and the retired people are showing as 90% o them drawing more money than they pay in - this indicates that for example for 2020, this is the net contribution of people during 2020, and not over their whole life.

It doesn't change the point you are trying to make as this graph adequately backs it up - I would just also be interested to know what pecent of people are net contributors over their entire life, (including childhood which I suspect is excluded from the graph).

The government/ONS do not publish the figure, but various estimates all seem to indicate fewer than 3% of people make a net positive lifetime contribution. How small the number of net contributors actually is is very hard to work out, but it could well be lower than 1%.

xylophone

But when are we going to stop comparing apples to oranges ? 

It wasn't my intention to make such a comparison - I was just giving an example of the mechanism applying under old and new system.