Unusually high gas usage of 43000kwh per year

giles007

theoretica said:

giles007 said:

UFH is on at a constant 40 degrees water temperature, the thermostats are set at 20 degrees for the underfloor heated rooms - but we have been told that the UFH is very efficient

What do you think 'efficient' means in practice in this context?

as in doesn't use as much gas as conventional radiator driven CH would use

theoretica

giles007 said:

theoretica said:

giles007 said:

UFH is on at a constant 40 degrees water temperature, the thermostats are set at 20 degrees for the underfloor heated rooms - but we have been told that the UFH is very efficient

What do you think 'efficient' means in practice in this context?

as in doesn't use as much gas as conventional radiator driven CH would use

True - but that doesn't mean it can't still be using a lot!  And it seems to be in this case - enough that when you turned off the aga (which the internet says runs at about 2000 kWh a month) and that meant the underfloor heating came on more often you didn't see much of a reduction in total gas use.  Efficient does not mean not worth cutting down on.

BUFF

giles007 said:

youravinalarrrf said:

giles007 said:

The CH and UFH are off overnight as soon as the lower temperature schedules kick in and would rarely, if ever, come back on before the next daytime schedules, as the temperature rarely gets down to the levels set for those periods

That's not what your earlier post suggested was actually happening (see highlighted text below).

giles007 said:

Heating and Schedules

We have a couple of UFH zones downstairs and they are set to 21 degrees from 6am to 11pm, then they are set to 17 degrees overnight

The rest of the house is controlled by 1 thermostat which is set to

20 degrees 6am to 9am

16 degrees 9am to 3pm

20 degrees 3pm to 11pm

16 degrees 11pm to 6am

Under Floor Heating

Installed over half of the downstairs. Its a separate manifold with water temperature set at 40c

If the CH and UFH are not being fully turned off overnight (ie no times set at all) your boiler will be kicking in automatically and be burning gas whenever the temperature falls below those minimum temperature levels you have set. Because you are asleep in bed you will probably not even be aware when it's happening and you may be surprised by how often the temperature drops below your temperature settings during the night.

The whole thing about reducing your consumption and costs is about shaving bits off your time and temperature settings.

Perhaps 17 degrees may ultimately prove to be too low for your overall comfort but it is a starting point and can always be increased if necessary.

I admit that I had my heating set to 18 degrees (occasionally 20 degrees) prior to the recent price hikes but a 1 degree reduction in temperature has made a difference to my usage and bills and the difference in comfort level is honestly hardly noticeable.

For a comparison government guidance for the minimum temperatures for all UK indoor workplaces is 16 degrees (or 13 degrees if doing manual work).

As others have said I think your fears and excuses for not having smart meters fitted are unfounded and I'm surprised Shell haven't insisted on replacing that old gas meter on age and safety grounds. When they do you will have no choice and it will be replaced with a smart meter as the old type meters are no longer available or fitted. It might be a good idea to force the issue and request that both gas and electricity meters are replaced with smart meters.

On another note if the press reports are to be believed you may well become an Ovo customer in the near future if the proposed takeover goes ahead.

"For a comparison government guidance for the minimum temperatures for all UK indoor workplaces is 16 degrees (or 13 degrees if doing manual work)."

That minimum is not a comfortable living or working temperature - i challenge you to turn your heating down to 16 for a month and see?

I am below that temp. although I do wear a fleece indoors all winter.
I do admit that most people probably would not be comfortable at the temperature that I am though.
My gas usage (CH & DHW) this year will be <5000kWh in a ~120 year old Edwardian 3-bedroom terrace.
In the 70s people only typically heated their houses to ~12C.

Petriix

@giles007 your usage is entirely aligned with your bills. There's no anomaly, the temperatures and heating periods combined with the size of your house seem well within the range of the total usage you've detailed.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference and convenience. Average houses and normal temperatures don't really exist and certainly shouldn't be a target. You spend your money how you want and there shouldn't be any judgement about that. 

But you need to understand that there are choices you can make to reduce your usage, if you're willing to compromise. The most basic principle is to reduce the amount of space you're heating and the time you're heating it for. You could choose to limit the areas of the house you use at certain times of day and keep the rest of the house colder - maybe smart TRVs could help.

MWT

merchcon55 said:

Let’s assume you have a 35kwh boiler. With a cubic ft meter, IF the boiler were actually firing for the full hour, your meter should move 1.1 units (so 7654.3 to 7655.4 as example).

Roughly, to convert imperial units to KWH multiply by 32.1, so 1.1 x 32.1 = 35.3 kWh, which is what a 35kwh output boiler would us IF firing for the full hour.

This should allow you to determine if your meter is working properly.

Modern boilers modulate the burn, you can't calculate anything just based on if the boiler is 'firing' or not...

Apodemus

giles007 said:

youravinalarrrf said:

giles007 said:

The CH and UFH are off overnight as soon as the lower temperature schedules kick in and would rarely, if ever, come back on before the next daytime schedules, as the temperature rarely gets down to the levels set for those periods

That's not what your earlier post suggested was actually happening (see highlighted text below).

giles007 said:

Heating and Schedules

We have a couple of UFH zones downstairs and they are set to 21 degrees from 6am to 11pm, then they are set to 17 degrees overnight

The rest of the house is controlled by 1 thermostat which is set to

20 degrees 6am to 9am

16 degrees 9am to 3pm

20 degrees 3pm to 11pm

16 degrees 11pm to 6am

Under Floor Heating

Installed over half of the downstairs. Its a separate manifold with water temperature set at 40c

If the CH and UFH are not being fully turned off overnight (ie no times set at all) your boiler will be kicking in automatically and be burning gas whenever the temperature falls below those minimum temperature levels you have set. Because you are asleep in bed you will probably not even be aware when it's happening and you may be surprised by how often the temperature drops below your temperature settings during the night.

The whole thing about reducing your consumption and costs is about shaving bits off your time and temperature settings.

Perhaps 17 degrees may ultimately prove to be too low for your overall comfort but it is a starting point and can always be increased if necessary.

I admit that I had my heating set to 18 degrees (occasionally 20 degrees) prior to the recent price hikes but a 1 degree reduction in temperature has made a difference to my usage and bills and the difference in comfort level is honestly hardly noticeable.

For a comparison government guidance for the minimum temperatures for all UK indoor workplaces is 16 degrees (or 13 degrees if doing manual work).

As others have said I think your fears and excuses for not having smart meters fitted are unfounded and I'm surprised Shell haven't insisted on replacing that old gas meter on age and safety grounds. When they do you will have no choice and it will be replaced with a smart meter as the old type meters are no longer available or fitted. It might be a good idea to force the issue and request that both gas and electricity meters are replaced with smart meters.

On another note if the press reports are to be believed you may well become an Ovo customer in the near future if the proposed takeover goes ahead.

That minimum is not a comfortable living or working temperature - i challenge you to turn your heating down to 16 for a month and see?

It's all a matter of personal preference.  We live a couple of hundred miles north of you in a poorly insulated converted 1890s farm building in an exposed position.  Our thermostat is set to 16C for a couple of hours morning and evening, then 12C for the day and 10C overnight.  We don't walk around dressed like the Michelin man and survive quite well! 

MultiFuelBurner

Firstly apologies if this has been answered but I only skim read the whole 9 pages.

Out of interest you mentioned pre under floor heating your gas bill was higher.

What was the difference?

18oC is too cold for us when we sit but that's ok in the Kitchen but not the lounge. 20oC minimum in the lounge for us.

giles007

MultiFuelBurner said:

Firstly apologies if this has been answered but I only skim read the whole 9 pages.

Out of interest you mentioned pre under floor heating your gas bill was higher.

What was the difference?

18oC is too cold for us when we sit but that's ok in the Kitchen but not the lounge. 20oC minimum in the lounge for us.

pre UFH, new boiler and new insulation, the usage was 51000kWh annually now it is around 43000kWh

EssexHebridean

It might be interesting to know what the OP's annual use of electricity is, also - as a high use there could well back up the whole "you are higher users than you think you are" suggestion. Water use also - as suggested earlier in the thread. 

I'd assume that Smart TRV's won't appeal due to the wifi aspect - although for anyone else reading who is struggling with similar issues they could be extremely useful in helping to heat individual rooms to the temperature required rather than the one size fits all approach of a simple mechanical thermostat, and also really being able - as bill payer - to keep a handle on what level bedrooms for example are being heated to. 

Also to others reading who are concerned about the smart meter reservation raised - there is plenty of good facts given in the thread explaining why there doesn't need to be concern over that specific reservation. 

OP - the water heating definitely seems to be valid so properly establishing why so much energy is going into heating the water might be a plan. Not sure if you've already been asked but what sort of insulation is there on the hot water cylinder, and how often is that likely to be being emptied and refilled during a day? (Think showers and baths particularly). Are people using hot water for straightforward handwashing? With 4 people in the house that will have an impact on the heated water leaving the tank too - might be worth reminding them that it's the soap that's the important bit as you're not going to be sticking your hands under water hot enough to kill germs! 

(Sections in italics are addressed at those coming subsequently to this thread via a search due to struggling with similar issues, rather than to the OP). 

michaels

Do you have any monthly past usage data - by looking at July you should be able to figure out how much of your usage is hot water (or hot water plus aga) as this should be pretty much a no heating month.

WE are a 5 bed supposedly ok insulated semi.  I couple of years ago we were using 38,000 units a year but by cutting back on shower length and less heating (no longer t-shirt weather all year round) in response to the price going up form 2.2p per unit to 10.3p our current 12m rolling is 19,000