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LBG closing all my accounts on 18th May

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  • gwapenut
    gwapenut Posts: 1,431 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    masonic said:
    This tends to be reserved only for the most extreme cases, such as circumventing systems to restrict account limits or lines of credit, exploiting bank interest cut-off times

    I remember the discussions here, years ago, about maximising savings interest across multiple provider by daily transfers between interest cut-off times. Did this run into problems then?
  • pecunianonolet
    pecunianonolet Posts: 1,778 Forumite
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    dealyboy said:
    Hi @WillPS ... and thanks to @pecunianonolet for providing an honest and open discussion of their actions.
    WillPS said:
    pecunianonolet said:
    I have been reading this thread with very high interest and unfortunately, I think LBG is on the hunt clearing their customer base. 

    I opened a Lloyds account in January to benefit from their switching offer. I used a freshly opened Metro account for it since I didn't have any other donor account. As soon as I got the incentive I downgraded the account to a free classic account. After I got the statement and confirmation that no fees were payable I upgraded to Club, purely to get the cinema tickets, which took around 4 weeks to arrive.

    The crucial bit, I opened within a very short period of time, I guess within a week, maybe two (would need to check all the emails for exact details) another 4 classic accounts. 

    Of the classic accounts I switched away 2 on the same day to Natwest and RBS. After the switch was completed, I opened over the course of I think 3 days another 2 classic accounts to replenish the ones switched away. I was tempted on the Santander switch as well but was conscious of another switch and hard search and was trying to leave as much space as possible and then the offer was withdrawn. Not the end of the world, another one will come round.

    Now, a few weeks later on the 6th March I opened a first direct current account for their switch offer (and access to the 7% reg saver), no issues and switch is in progress and should finish soon. They only gave a rather far in the future switch date as the first opportunity so accepted it as is. Lloyds again sent out a latter informing me they received a switch request and if this is wrong I should get in touch, same as with RBS & Natwest. HSBC is my main account for almost 15 years now and I think first direct must have had access to data that way. First direct had at account opening the ID checks, I took a photo of my passport as they required but when they wanted a live picture my phone denied the request and the whole process got cancelled and they said they'll get in touch. Got all documents, card and PIN and account working and the £1000 have been bounced through to meet the requirement. I also applied for a new account with Ulster and the signed application form was posted only yesterday, again a Lloyds account has been used at application stage for the switch.

    I also had to apply for a Virgin current account to use the now NLA 4.25% 1y fix ISA, which got fully funded. However, HSBC was unable to make a 16k transaction in one go (put 4k into the ISA the day before), spent over 1h on the phone with them and was unable to make that transaction via app r online banking. However, was able to make make several smaller withdrawals from HSBC to Virgin ISA directly and to Club Lloyds. So I bounced money through Lloyds for this and funded the ISA that way too. HSBC complaint was raised via chat a few days later, it was dealt with immediately via chat and got compensated with £50 straight and complaint closed after I accepted.

    Now, since I have enough donor/burner accounts with Lloyds I though, amazing, another opportunity with Halifax for yet another £175 and the opportunity to make a 5er in rewards as well. Was even planning to increase the number to 3 reward accounts to make it £15 a month.

    SO applied to Halifax on the 14th of March, initiated a switch at account opening with a Lloyds account as it was confirmed here it is possible and the T&S's also not specified anything further. Got a text straight away from Halifax Switching Team telling me they received my request and will be in touch soon. 

    On the 15th in the morning I got another text confirming switch date of 23rd March and a phone number should I have any further questions. Happy days I thought. 

    On 16th of March I received the letter with the registration code for online banking. Did all everything required in the evening and got a text that I have successfully registered for online banking. Since I was in and everything worked so smoothly and without issues with Lloyds the weeks before, I thought this is great and opened a regular saver via app. No issues. Thought I go ahead and open a classic current account as well to upgrade in a few weeks to a rewards account. Current account application was declined. 

    On the morning of the 17th March I received a text:

    Mr pecunianonolet. We've now completed some further checks on your Current Account application and decided to close this new account. You may still get a message from us saying we've accepted your application. You can disregard this and destroy any card or PIN you received for this account. We're sending you a letter to confirm the closure and explain the reasons for it in more detail. You'll receive this in the next few days. Thank you.

    I was rather annoyed, so went on to the app and asked in chat and got a reference number and phone number. I did not raise a complaint, it was only an inquiry at this point. Phoned and explained the case and asked for more detail. The gentleman on the other side said he is checking and put me on hold for at least 3-4 minutes and then told me that I have not met some of the criteria. I was asking what they are and in what part I failed and the answer was that he is unable to let me know. I was telling him that I would like to appeal to this decision and that I happily take it to the ombudsman if I feel that I have not been treated fairly, that I am happy to provide proof of address, payslips and identity details such as my passport and anything else they might require. His answer was that he is unable to deal with this and that it will be forwarded to his manager to review. He confirmed that a letter was posted the previous day and should be with me soon and will contain some info and what next steps I can do. Fair to say, that he was not the most friendly person to deal with.

    Going to be interesting to see what the letter will say and if it is identical to the one posted. I have had no other issues with Lloyds itself, all the accounts show a NIL balance with them, except of the club and standard reg savers having had been funded with their allowance for March. 

    The reasons could be the same, too many new accounts opened in a short while and soon after switched away. However, what speaks against this theory is that the OH did more or less the same:

    -     New Metro account switch to Lloyds
    - Natwest/RBS switch completed and incentives received last week using Lloyds donor accounts
    - Ulster application signed and posted yesterday
    - Halifax account opened and accidentally she put down the account details of the account we already switched to Natwest so this was obviously declined. Submitted a new switch request for another unused Lloyds account on Sunday, no comms since about the switch but account open and working
    - OH not able to use First Direct as she had an HSBC switch incentive before


    So the multi account opening/switching could be a reason but it might also be that I just had in general too many hard searches and account openings. I also had 6 credit cards in the last 3 months for stoozing, however, non with LBG.

    On another note, had raised a complaint a few weeks back as my Experian credit file showed all Natwest Group searches as credit searches, non of their entries was marked as a current account search and I also had a search I was not recognising as it should have only been a soft search and not  hard search so asked them to investigate and clarify and if needed correct. I never applied for any overdraft. Natwest compliant was investigated and they initially thought this extra search could be fraud, I agreed to be investigated but said that I can't approve or deny of it and just wanted to get facts first. As a result, shortly after I was given the outcome that they checked and requested for 3 searches to be removed, however, this was subject to approval and may or my not happen and I need to check again in 3 months. I was also assured in writing, that no CIFAS markers are applied to my file. However, since that my credit cards disappeared from my RBS/Natwest account. No access to statements, amends or checks of repayment etc. RBS took some money beginning of the month and Natwest was supposed to but nothing happened. I have responded to the complaints advisor to clarify why the accounts disappeared, no answer for over a week when they usually tried to call after 1-2 days. Chased up on it again, that's now over 10 days ago, nothing and accounts still invisible.

    I am a higher earner, can comfortably put £2000 a month aside for savings/repayments and in theory be able to repay my stoozing debt easily, never had a missed payment ever so in the eyes of banks I should be a trustworthy customer.

    Bit of a longer story but hope it provides enough details so others not get caught or into similar trouble. 



    Did you not think at any point you were massively taking the mickey? I would be expecting LBG to permanently shut the door on me if I had the gall to open 4 current accounts at once only to switch them away almost immediately, one to another LBG brand!
    ... I don't agree.

    MSE'ers want to save money and the more astute want to make money, and in both cases want to give or take advice. pecunia as far as I can see has done nothing illegal and kept within the rules and T&Cs, the only thing he/she/they are guilty of is a little naivety.

    Rather than siding with the LBG for being 'offended' by a customer, I am concerned about the consequences for pecunia and partner of these corporate actions.
    Thanks but no need to worry and hope the very detailed case helps others. My accounts are all still showing in the Halifax app, yesterday I got the PIN for the card, which arrived the day before. However, in the app under card management it shows nothing. The letter they sent out also has not arrived yet (postie not been here yet today). The OH initiated the switch via online banking after the first attempt was declined due to incorrect info entered, no news since but switch date to be 28th so we will see. 

    My Lloyds account is running and working as normal, I get the usual emails, statements and my first direct switch completed on the 20th and yesterday that account disappeared from the Lloyds list of accounts. I never had more than the allowed 5 current accounts and in the past only reopened a new current account to get to to 5 accounts again. My Club Lloyds had 23k in and outs this month, currently NIL balance. We could argue, that Lloyds could have put a stop in place and just declined my applications for new current accounts. Or they could put a limit in and say, we allow up to 5 accounts but you can only open a max number of new accounts per months, quarter, etc. They could also stop the practise of giving us new accounts without hard search, that would stop most of us. If you don't want somebody to max out the abilities provided, stop and regulate in the first place. My last point would be, if Halifax is so picky with customer actions, maybe they should get their own actions right first. the first publication of the Switch term was outdated, wrong dates, etc. Professionalism looks different
  • trient
    trient Posts: 184 Forumite
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    pecunianonolet said:

    Lloyds could have put a stop in place and just declined my applications for new current accounts. Or they could put a limit in and say, we allow up to 5 accounts but you can only open a max number of new accounts per months, quarter, etc. They could also stop the practise of giving us new accounts without hard search, that would stop most of us. If you don't want somebody to max out the abilities provided, stop and regulate in the first place. My last point would be, if Halifax is so picky with customer actions, maybe they should get their own actions right first. the first publication of the Switch term was outdated, wrong dates, etc. Professionalism looks different
    And that's why I mentioned earlier the Creation/Curve debacle. Creation could have easily blocked Curve cards at BIN level (many others did it just fine) and just removed the problem; instead, they took the most heavy-handed approach and closed thousands of accounts while making silly mistakes in the process that cost them much more due to FOS complaints and litigations, and it's not even over yet.  There's little to no professionalism exhibited there - I'd argue the customers "taking the mickey" are at least as professional as the banks are.
  • WillPS
    WillPS Posts: 5,162 Forumite
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    edited 22 March 2023 at 12:56PM
    trient said:
    pecunianonolet said:

    Lloyds could have put a stop in place and just declined my applications for new current accounts. Or they could put a limit in and say, we allow up to 5 accounts but you can only open a max number of new accounts per months, quarter, etc. They could also stop the practise of giving us new accounts without hard search, that would stop most of us. If you don't want somebody to max out the abilities provided, stop and regulate in the first place. My last point would be, if Halifax is so picky with customer actions, maybe they should get their own actions right first. the first publication of the Switch term was outdated, wrong dates, etc. Professionalism looks different
    And that's why I mentioned earlier the Creation/Curve debacle. Creation could have easily blocked Curve cards at BIN level (many others did it just fine) and just removed the problem; instead, they took the most heavy-handed approach and closed thousands of accounts while making silly mistakes in the process that cost them much more due to FOS complaints and litigations, and it's not even over yet.  There's little to no professionalism exhibited there - I'd argue the customers "taking the mickey" are at least as professional as the banks are.

    The big difference with Creation/Curve is that as well as sacking off their customers (as they were totally within their right to do, I think all accept) they didn't give them the rewards which had been earnt while their cards and agreements were still active.
    I'm not sure that maps on to any of the LBG account closure situations which have been discussed here; nobody has had them welch or try to claw back any rewards or bonuses, correct?
    Incidentally - I don't think they could have blocked on BINs since Curve acted like the merchant to Creation, but I don't doubt there was some other identifier they could have used (and eventually did IIRC). They were not the only lender to cack up the response to Curve tho, Tesco Bank and RBS Group (as was) both upset a lot of customers by suddenly treating them as cash advances, and Virgin Money threatened a similar course of action without actually implementing it for years.
  • trient
    trient Posts: 184 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 100 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 22 March 2023 at 1:12PM
    WillPS said:

    The big difference with Creation/Curve is that as well as sacking off their customers (as they were totally within their right to do, I think all accept) they didn't give them the rewards which had been earnt while their cards and agreements were still active.
    My example was in the context of financial institutions taking heavy-handed measures rather than tightening rules to prevent/reduce abuse while still retaining potential valuable business from those customers.
    I'm not sure that maps on to any of the LBG account closure situations which have been discussed here; nobody has had them welch or try to claw back any rewards or bonuses, correct?
    Not the point I was making, but not sure what happens e.g. with interest accrued but not posted on savings accounts.  And you could argue that a pending bonus lost from a closed Halifax reward account would be similar - but obvs not something anyone would lose sleep over.
    Incidentally - I don't think they could have blocked on BINs since Curve acted like the merchant to Creation, but I don't doubt there was some other identifier they could have used (and eventually did IIRC). They were not the only lender to cack up the response to Curve tho, Tesco Bank and RBS Group (as was) both upset a lot of customers by suddenly treating them as cash advances, and Virgin Money threatened a similar course of action without actually implementing it for years.
    They did block the BIN since you can't add their cards to Curve anymore, and IIRC they asked Curve to kick out all cards already on file.  There's also the Curve-fronted card repayments where you do enter the Curve BIN.  And they could have blocked the right MCCs like everyone else.  And finally, in theory they could have blocked Curve as a merchant thru the merchant ID I guess, but I've not heard of anyone taking such a heavy-handed measure with another financial institution (they only do that with customers B)).
  • WillPS
    WillPS Posts: 5,162 Forumite
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    trient said:
    WillPS said:

    The big difference with Creation/Curve is that as well as sacking off their customers (as they were totally within their right to do, I think all accept) they didn't give them the rewards which had been earnt while their cards and agreements were still active.
    My example was in the context of financial institutions taking heavy-handed measures rather than tightening rules to prevent/reduce abuse while still retaining potential valuable business from those customers.
    That's a double edged sword though. There are no doubt customers who have many more current accounts, perhaps opened at once, who LBG are happy to continue a relationship with.

    There's such a thing as offering the other party enough rope to hang themselves, too. Perhaps LBG have data that customers who do such things have a high likelihood of going on to do other undesirable things, so better to let them show themselves so they can flag them for review and/or permanently sack them off.

    trient said:

    I'm not sure that maps on to any of the LBG account closure situations which have been discussed here; nobody has had them welch or try to claw back any rewards or bonuses, correct?
    Not the point I was making, but not sure what happens e.g. with interest accrued but not posted on savings accounts.  And you could argue that a pending bonus lost from a closed Halifax reward account would be similar - but obvs not something anyone would lose sleep over.
    Are Halifax not paying rewards in the notice period of these accounts? I've not seen any reports of such.
    There's more to the Creation mass cull, which included all Curve users (even people who just assigned their account and did nothing else, apparently!) but also loads of others who never even held a Curve card, and it applied to their old Marriott cards too. Like Jaja are doing now, they clearly took the initiative to bin off a load of customers they felt were making them money - as is their right.

    trient said:

    Incidentally - I don't think they could have blocked on BINs since Curve acted like the merchant to Creation, but I don't doubt there was some other identifier they could have used (and eventually did IIRC). They were not the only lender to cack up the response to Curve tho, Tesco Bank and RBS Group (as was) both upset a lot of customers by suddenly treating them as cash advances, and Virgin Money threatened a similar course of action without actually implementing it for years.
    They did block the BIN since you can't add their cards to Curve anymore, and IIRC they asked Curve to kick out all cards already on file.  There's also the Curve-fronted card repayments where you do enter the Curve BIN.  And they could have blocked the right MCCs like everyone else.  And finally, in theory they could have blocked Curve as a merchant thru the merchant ID I guess, but I've not heard of anyone taking such a heavy-handed measure with another financial institution (they only do that with customers B)).
    Curve can block attached cards by BIN, but given Curve act as the merchant charging the underlying card. This is semantics though and you are basically correct, I suspect Creation advised that they would no longer be accepting charges from Curve and as a result Curve binned off all those linked cards (since they knew that any further capture attempts would be futile).
    MCC is again a double edged sword to block, there were no doubt other merchants using that MCC who issuers do not wish to block - and at the point Creation pulled the plug Curve had already starting passing through the accurate MCC, so wouldn't have worked anyway.
    eskbanker said:
    WillPS said:
    Again, nobody is talking about CIFAS markers so even if LBG chuck them out as long as they don't take the mickey as aggregiously elsewhere there shouldn't be an issue.
    That really ought to be an actual word, for aggressively egregious!

    Argh how embarrassing, adjusting now!
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