Smart Meter

[Deleted User]

matt_drummer said:

[Deleted User] said:

matt_drummer said:

[Deleted User] said:

Where does all this nonsense come from?

How can a ‘smart meter give energy companies complete control of what you pay’? A smart meter is just a meter that provides the supplier with readings. The contract - the tariff - is agreed between the customer and the supplier irrespective of the meter type. Suppliers cannot just raise evening rates unless the contract that the customer ‘signed’ allows them to do so.

By allowing those with smart meters to use electricity when the rates are the cheapest they will be able to pay less, those without smart meters won't be able to benefit, therefore those without smart meters will pay the highest rates. I never said rates will be raised, they just won't be able to be lowered.

I thought that I was agreeing with you! 

I'm sorry, I thought you said I was talking nonsense.

My mistake, I apologise.

No apology needed: I could have made my point in a clearer way.

Raxiel

wild666 said:

debitcardmayhem said: As for smart bulbs etc  how much do they save after the cost of buying I dunno but I don't expect to live long enough to re-coup the cost of smart 5 watt bulbs and their hub or whatever. 

A smart bulb uses about 4 Watts per hour in standby waiting to be activated, around 35 kWh per year in standby if it's never activated. When the Smart bulb is turned on it can use from 10 Watts upwards per hour, that's about one fifth of an old style bulb.
I got the info from the smart bulbs I had a few years ago when it said a old style bulb used about 1kWh in 25 hours whereas the smart bulbs I had used 200W in the same period.  
Anything that's claimed to be smart will use some electricity however small when it's not in operation.

The smart lamps I have fitted (Tapo L530E) are just 0.4W in standby, according to the datasheet. They make up for even that trivial amount by virtue of the fact I can turn them off remotely when people leave the house lit up, and they spend most of their lives dimmed well below their maximum output.

That said though, the energy cost of even the cheapest, least efficient LED lamps is still so low that the smart bulbs are unlikely to ever pay for themselves unless they're replacing incandescents.

That was never really the point for me though. I find them convenient to use, I have different colours for different times of day, like 'daylight' while I'm WFH, then redder light in the evenings, and for the kids night light, and l like that they are dimmed on the DC side so there's no chopping of the AC waveform that traditional incandescent dimmers do that makes them buzz and wear out the driver circuitry.

The fact they save a little bit more with the power is just a bonus.

Bigphil1474

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

GingerTim

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

Are you saying that all of the Big 6 are going to settle for making the same amount of profit year in, year out, and not want to take market share from each other? Because that seems very unlikely to me.

matt_drummer

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

And in that scenario what would they charge those without smart meters?

More or less?

As we all keep saying, as bad as it might be in the future, it will be worse for those not on smart meters.


btw, I am always curious, how do you know that your 28 year old electricity meter worked fine? What did you do to check it and how often?

MattMattMattUK

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. 

They cannot decide that, they are required by regulation and legislation to provide an SVT.

Bigphil1474 said:

They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. 

It is a conspiracy theory.

Bigphil1474 said:

They'll need to get their profits from somewhere.

They do, otherwise they go bust, that is the nature of running a business.

Bigphil1474 said:

No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

Well other than for most of the last twenty years we had some of the cheapest energy in EU. It worked very well if you take a short term view which most of the UK electorate and our major political parties do, less so if one wants a coherent energy policy spanning decades, with energy security included in the mix.

Bigphil1474 said:

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

They are unlikely to cause you "grief", they will allow you to be charged for your usage on either a single, multiple or ToU basis.

Bigphil1474 said:

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

They will not try and profit from smart meters, they will try and make a profit, that is why they are in business. ToU tariffs may offer them a way to do that, increase profits and lower consumer prices, by load shifting to when they can buy energy cheaply but selling it at a higher margin. 

Cycling_Phil

MikeJXE said:

Once most people have smart meters whats stopping the energy supplier choosing you a tariff that only gives you a high rate when they know you mostly use your energy and a low rate when you don't use any. ? 

The energy companies will have enough data to make sure they are profitable, why would they want to give you a low tariff when they know you can't do without the energy at a certain time ? 

You can set your energy smart meter to only send them readings once a month, they won’t have an hour by hour breakdown.

[Deleted User]

matt_drummer said:

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

btw, I am always curious, how do you know that your 28 year old electricity meter worked fine? What did you do to check it and how often?

Meters either work or they fail. My wife has a BP monitor that she uses each day. So far it has never failed but once a year she sends it back to the manufacturer to have it checked for accuracy. It either comes back as was, or they replace it with a new machine. Energy meters are no different. They are certified on manufacture but, through wear and tear, the accuracy of the metering can drift. Unless a calibrated energy meter is fitted alongside the existing meter, no one can say ‘my metering is working fine’. 

TheElectricCow

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

That still relies entirely on practically all regulation of the energy sector going out the window, there being no competition either from within the big six or any other competing energy company, and the rest of the country sitting idly by as your energy cartel declares that they alone now have absolute control over consumer energy prices and can set them at whatever level they like.

It’s essentially still working on exactly the same main points as the BG Conglomerate scenario, but with a few of the more exaggerated details changed.

And the biggest flaw still stands - if those companies came together and had that level of unchallenged control over the prices for any reason, the way to maximise profits would be to just set one constant very high fixed rate for everyone. Why bother with on/off peak times and rates when they could just say that all electric is now charged at 100p/kWh. That would be far more profitable than them making up a convoluted system with higher and lower rates for different times or different people.

In either of these scenarios we’ll have far bigger problems than being overcharged for our energy anyway, considering that they both require a complete breakdown of the governing of this country as we know it today and huge companies have to be completely unregulated by anyone other than themselves.

[Deleted User]

TheElectricCow said:

Bigphil1474 said:

Here's a scenario. Everyone is on a smart meter. The big six providers decide that fixed rate energy deals are no longer valid in a smart meter world, so the only contracts that become available are variable rate tariffs depending on time of day usage. They decide what the peak rates are and what the off-peak rates are and tailor them to maximise their profit. There's no need for a BG national conglomeration, because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway. Once they have control, they'll never let it go. May sound like a conspiracy theory, but I bet somebody in some boardroom has already thought about it. They'll need to get their profits from somewhere. No different to the Thatcherite arguments of the 80's for creating the energy 'market' in the first place, with promises of pushing down prices for the ordinary people - never really worked.

I do have smart meters, but I expect that it will cause me grief in the future. My old electric meter was at least 28 years old as it was here when we moved in. Worked fine though.

Anyone who believes the energy suppliers will not try and (extra) profit from smart meters in the future is a bit deluded IMO, but they do serve a useful purpose in informing the energy producers.

That still relies entirely on practically all regulation of the energy sector going out the window, there being no competition either from within the big six or any other competing energy company, and the rest of the country sitting idly by as your energy cartel declares that they alone now have absolute control over consumer energy prices and can set them at whatever level they like.

It’s essentially still working on exactly the same main points as the BG Conglomerate scenario, but with a few of the more exaggerated details changed.

And the biggest flaw still stands - if those companies came together and had that level of unchallenged control over the prices for any reason, the way to maximise profits would be to just set one constant very high fixed rate for everyone. Why bother with on/off peak times and rates when they could just say that all electric is now charged at 100p/kWh. That would be far more profitable than them making up a convoluted system with higher and lower rates for different times or different people.

In either of these scenarios we’ll have far bigger problems than being overcharged for our energy anyway, considering that they both require a complete breakdown of the governing of this country as we know it today and huge companies have to be completely unregulated by anyone other than themselves.

It would be a brave, or arguably stupid, supplier that made any attempt to rig the energy market through a cartel. It is now a criminal act and and the CMA can initiate a Cartel Offence Prosecution. The CMA also has the powers to issue a fine against the supplier/s amounting to 30% of their turnover.

The poster who said ‘ because we all know they act as a huge cartel anyway‘ might wish to be aware that his comment could be construed as being libellious. Posting on a public website under a username offers no legal protection.