Customer demanding receipts

liberty_lily

Thanks twopenny 🙂 

What you say does make a lot of sense! Although I'm not sure I'm tough enough to do the phoning....happy to write any letters/emails though (I had plenty of practice when reclaiming PPI 😉)

twopenny

Your welcome.
I'm not saying anything that is right for you two. But just trying to open up thoughts so you can do what is right for you.
Letterrs can be good. Proof of posting or, if they still do it, recorded delivery gives an impression of seriousness or intent to go further just as an indicator to this woman
Sounds to me that she is somewhat over confident and doesn't expect to be questioned or prove herself. She's just gone off on one without any back-up to her thoughts.
More likely the builders she saw (how many) got her measure and wouldn't go near.
After all, if he's done it so terribly badly why would she want him to return and remove?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

liberty_lily said:

Hi all and again thanks so much from me and DH for all your helpful replies on this thread!

I just wanted to update with the latest developments....

We sent the spreadsheet of materials/costs. This was not acknowledged. 

DH has started at his new place of employment and - coupled with having seen his GP who agreed it was best he avoided the stresses of being a self-employed builder - is feeling much happier overall. 

Last Thursday evening he received an email from the customer in question. We expected this and acknowledge that he would have been better to do as GDB2222 suggested above and make contact himself explaining his health situation/reasons for not continuing. Sadly, I've not been on the forum for a while and only saw this post today.

Anyway, what's done is done and now we're going to have to man up and deal with it.

The email was not headed 'Letter Before Action' but along with a myriad of complaints and moaning - some of which is justified (DH not returning to site), but much of which is not (claiming that he has not used the correct materials to secure the insulation panels - this is absolute rubbish as he not only used the recommended adhesive and mechanical fixings, but actually used more of the latter than was necessary, in a belt and braces approach).

The following is an extract from her lengthy email -

"It seems obvious that you will not be returning to do the job you have been paid for. I have sought legal advice and if I do not receive a satisfactory response within the next seven days you will leave me no choice but to demand a full refund of my money from you as well as take legal action to cover costs incurred to have all work done by you removed and disposed of as no other builder can or would finish the works you have started as they would not be able to guarantee your work. 

Therefore I will be expecting to recover from you £19,694.41 -

1. £5135.18 for materials 

2. £4330 for poor workmanship and not completed

3. £1000 for wall ties incomplete

4. £284 for camera investigation for wall ties

5. £2500 for wall ties to be removed and redone (only if wall ties fail inspection)

6. £6445.23 for removal and disposal of current works done and preparation for new contractor to complete EWI"

To illustrate her exaggeration - the wall ties she says are incomplete and wants refunding for - there are around just three wall ties not done. This is only because before starting the job, she said her then boyfriend would be removing the old render but this didn't happen as she dumped him and DH had to do it. DH had done most of the removal before the scaffolding arrived on site but this little area (maximum 1 sq m) in the apex of the gable end couldn't be reached without the scaffolding and he hadn't got round to doing it yet.

Obviously we don't want DH to face legal action as his mental health would struggle to cope...not to mention we don't have that kind of money sitting around. 

It looks as though she's demanding a return of the £5135.18 + £4330 (£9465.18) which is what she has paid DH for materials and labour, whilst only taking (or considering taking) legal action for the additional £10,229.23.

DH feels much of her email is 'bluster' and our adult son has suggested we call her bluff in some way, but nonetheless DH is inclined towards offering to complete the work - during his holiday perhaps. 

Would this be a stupid suggestion to make?

Sorry to hear of the situation OP. The below details the rights of the customer and how they relate to this situation, please don't take anything as siding with the customer, it's intended to be factual info to help defend any claim that may arise and for you to understand any obligations, hopefully by the end of the post it gives a full picture  

Trader = DH, Consumer = customer, any figures are random whole figures for simplicity. 

The trader is obligated to carry out the service within a reasonable time and where that doesn't occur the consumer may seek a price reduction. As the weather has turned and the cold may affect the job the delay appears perfectly reasonable. Refusing to complete the job however may not be, typically in this situation someone looking for advice on the Consumer Rights board would be told to find someone to finish the job and seek the extra paid to the new tradesperson as a price reduction.

So £10,000 job paid in full, £8000 worth completed, find someone else at £2500 and claim that £2500. In your situation the work has only been paid for to cover what has been done so far (assuming all materials paid for were delivered and labour has been paid at a rate that reflect the % of work done/left) so the consumer would only claim the £500 with those figures. The consumer doesn't have to find a price that matches the first trader or the cheapest but they do have to mitigate (lessen) loses and be reasonable. 

Secondly each contract automatically includes a term that the service will be carried out with due care and skill, this would relate to the quality of work aspect and again someone on CR looking for advice would be told to have an independent inspection carried out out by an expert and if that supported their position have it in writing, add the cost of that inspection/report to the claim and seek the cost of correcting the work (the removal of what was done if required and the cost of redoing) as a price reduction + damages if over the original contract amount. 

Before the consumer can seek this price reduction they are required to allow a repeat performance to be carried out within a reasonable (according to the circumstances) time, if the trader refuses or fails to do so then they can seek the price reduction.

Firstly the customer appears to claim everything done wasn't good enough and so they want 1. £5135.18 materials 2. £4330 labour back in full, this appears very unreasonable unless the job is very bad. It might be wise for DH to visit and get photos of the work or even attend with an independent expert to get his own "report" to support his position that the work was carried out correctly. 

Regarding 3. £1000 for wall ties incomplete 4. £284 for camera investigation for wall ties 5. £2500 for wall ties to be removed and redone (only if wall ties fail inspection).

For the wall ties that haven't been done, if materials are on site and the labour for that aspect is yet to be paid they haven't suffered a loss. The reasons why 3 wall ties haven't been done aren't relevant if the labour for it has yet to be paid. The camera inspection appears to be in the area of independent inspection and the £2500 for it to be redone is fair if it's deemed it wasn't done correctly, the customer seems overkill on claiming nothing is correct and if DH is confident the wall ties that were done was correct I don't see 4 and 5 to be of concern.

6. £6445.23 for removal and disposal of current works done and preparation for new contractor to complete EWI"

This again assume everything was done wrong and again goes back to independent inspection and what it finds. Once again it seems overkill on the customer's part. 

Given the amount (nearly £20k) I think DH would be wise to cover his back and get as much as possible to show the work is sufficient so should this end up in small claims he can counter any evidence given by the customer.

It's worth noting a chancer tradesperson may be happy to agree the work is not correct so instead of £2500 to finish it they now have a job of nearly £20k removing and redoing from scratch, this is the main reason I'd suggest DH gets an independent inspection for his side. Given the impression created of the customer's mindset it feels they would gladly accept being told this rather than being critical and seeking multiple opinions.

I also think it is wise to offer to finish the job asap when the weather is suitable, if the customer refuses then they aren't being reasonable and may well be at fault for breaching the contract allowing DH to claim loss of profit (but I wouldn't irritate the situation by mentioning this unless you end up in small claims.) 

Most important thing is to put aside any emotion attached to this situation (as it's clear there is a lot) and keep things brief and factual It's worth a polite note that, with greatest sympathy and IMHO the state of mind doesn't really affect the obligations under the contract, that said I don't know if the court will view that being mentioned as irrelevant or whether they are required to take it into consideration and it may even work against you with regards to the work being carried out correctly. 

There is another forum for legal advice if needed:

https://legalbeagles.info/forums/

Hopefully it's bluster, the job can be finished and nothing further will come of it  

GDB2222

I’d be inclined to instruct a solicitor. There’s £20k being claimed, and you really need to head that off with a show of strength. 

Your response may be that you can’t afford the fees, but the problem is that, with costs, this case could cost you £50k if it goes to trial and you lose. 

Alternatively, as a self employed builder your husband would hopefully have been insured. Would the insurance cover this claim? If so, you should notify the insurance company straight away and let them handle this. 

liberty_lily

Thanks very much again twopenny , the_lunatic_is_in_my_head & GDB2222!

Lunatic - there is loads of extremely helpful information there and much to digest. Thank you for taking the time and effort to assist with this. 

I shall share all this with DH when he gets home later and try to reach a decision on the best way forward, but I believe that thanks to everyone's input here we are considerably better prepared!

Gavin83

It's far less potentially problematic if he just goes back and finishes the job.

Ignore the question of what's right and wrong. If he refuses to finish the job it could go to court and he could lose. I expect having to fight a legal battle will be far worse for his mental health than just spending a few days finishing the work.

Others will disagree. However there are posters here advising you to speak to a solicitor and hire independent experts to assess the work. All this could (potentially) be avoided just by finishing the job.

GDB2222

Gavin83 said:

It's far less potentially problematic if he just goes back and finishes the job.

Ignore the question of what's right and wrong. If he refuses to finish the job it could go to court and he could lose. I expect having to fight a legal battle will be far worse for his mental health than just spending a few days finishing the work.

Others will disagree. However there are posters here advising you to speak to a solicitor and hire independent experts to assess the work. All this could (potentially) be avoided just by finishing the job.

I agree, but he walked off the job weeks ago, and it’s not certain that the customer would allow him back. 

DH doesn’t have to do the work himself, if it’s too stressful. He could ask a mate to do it. 

warwick2001

GDB2222 said:

Gavin83 said:

It's far less potentially problematic if he just goes back and finishes the job.

Ignore the question of what's right and wrong. If he refuses to finish the job it could go to court and he could lose. I expect having to fight a legal battle will be far worse for his mental health than just spending a few days finishing the work.

Others will disagree. However there are posters here advising you to speak to a solicitor and hire independent experts to assess the work. All this could (potentially) be avoided just by finishing the job.

I agree, but he walked off the job weeks ago, and it’s not certain that the customer would allow him back. 

DH doesn’t have to do the work himself, if it’s too stressful. He could ask a mate to do it. 

I agree with this (in bold). Husband's mental health is far too important to run the risk of a flare up if he goes back to finish the job and the customer starts up again.

Can he subcontract out the work, to someone he knows and trusts in the industry, someone he has worked with previously? Admittedly you will probably lose all/any profit you might have made from this job (and might even cost you a few quid) to employ the sub-contractor, but that is a small price to pay for a husband with his mental health intact after this whole situation. And if he knows and trusts said sub-contractor, he will know the job will be done properly, and his reputation could be defended by the sub-contractor if the customer starts to badmouth husband (those in the industry will know a good worker/standard of work from a bad 'un).

Personally I would contact the customer (via email) and inform them that you will sub-contract out the work to be finished by XXXX (name the sub-contractor so the customer can contact them and ask for references etc. if she wants). State that all previous works will be assessed by the sub-contractor, anything that is sub-standard will be removed and replaced, and all other works will be completed. You will pay the sub-contractor directly once the customer has paid you when the work is completed and signed off (if necessary). That way, she pays the original agreed price for the works, and you keep all financial dealings with the sub-contractor between yourselves (customer doesn't need to know how much sub-contractor is paid).

If customer totally disagrees with this option, then that might be going down the "customer not allowing for works to be completed" route, if it goes down the legal recompense route.

liberty_lily

GDB2222 said:

Gavin83 said:

It's far less potentially problematic if he just goes back and finishes the job.

Ignore the question of what's right and wrong. If he refuses to finish the job it could go to court and he could lose. I expect having to fight a legal battle will be far worse for his mental health than just spending a few days finishing the work.

Others will disagree. However there are posters here advising you to speak to a solicitor and hire independent experts to assess the work. All this could (potentially) be avoided just by finishing the job.

I agree, but he walked off the job weeks ago, and it’s not certain that the customer would allow him back. 

DH doesn’t have to do the work himself, if it’s too stressful. He could ask a mate to do it. 

Thank you Gavin83, GDB2222 and warwick 2001.

He has considered getting another tradesperson to complete the work, but sadly where we live there is a scarcity of decent, reliable trades who DH can trust and absolutely no-one in this particular field. Since starting doing building work for others he has had all sorts of issues with finding trades to work alongside him who can be trusted to turn up and do a good job.

For example, one plumber/general builder who'd agreed to work with him on a six month renovation project walked away after a few weeks - having taken three holidays during the first six weeks! - stating that he "couldn't be bothered to continue". We'd previously used this guy on our own renovation project and thought he was a good worker. After he'd walked away we discovered from his former business partner that he was flaky and made a habit of doing this. The former partner had had to ask him to leave as it was ruining his reputation. 

Another (roofer) who DH subcontracted to do work on a full house renovation was later found to have made errors that were only discovered several months later.

On one job DH was called in to 'rescue' after the original local builders abandoned it, he discovered that they had fitted velux windows to the roof without making openings below. Their response when the customer pointed this out was that they'd fitted the veluxes as the customer requested!

And a different builder who actually promised to assist with the job in question then went AWOL, not responding to messages and leaving DH in the lurch right at the beginning. In fact had he materialised as agreed, DH wouldn't be in this position right now. 

Regarding DH walking off the job weeks ago - to be completely accurate here, he had no intention of walking off site and not returning at the time. He finished work for Christmas at close of business on 22nd December with the intention to return between Christmas and New Year. Then - extremely unfortunately - on 28th December our house flooded and continued to do so until 15th January.

There was one dry day during this period when the water receded in our property sufficiently for him to go to site to do the last bit of old render removal and the final three wall ties. He texted the customer to say he'd be there that day and received no reply, which was fairly normal if she'd gone to work early. But on arrival he found everywhere locked up, including his tools which he'd left in the garage. So he had no alternative but to return home. 

After that, until the time i began this thread towards the end of January, what with torrential rain and freezing temperatures - if not during the day, then overnight - there was no consistent run of weather when he could realistically get any work completed. In fact, throughout February too the weather remained unsuited to rendering and even now it's not ideal (here in Wales we had icy conditions Tuesday, snow yesterday and torrential rain today).

When he emailed the customer explaining this during January, her reply accused him of "ranting about the weather."
 

GDB2222

Does he have insurance? If so, that would hopefully at least cover any rectification costs on work that the customer is alleging is unsatisfactory. 

Also, I take it that DH worked as self employed, and he didn’t have a limited company?