Customer demanding receipts

Risteard

Gavin83 said:

Then don't supply them and instead get into issues such as the OP is describing. Why not supply them unless you're concerned the contents of the receipts will cause more problems than they'll solve.

Because the quoted price is what they are charged at. The customer's invoice comes only from their supplier, which in this case is the builder. (No third party is relevant to this.) The customer has no contract with their builder's supplier. And frankly, it is a crime against good business practice to supply materials at the price paid for them as this is, in fact, selling them at a loss.

in_my_wellies

I'd expect the business to add some cost to the materials to cover time and effort ordering / collecting them.
If I provided them myself I'd expect the labour to cost more but perhaps not quite as much
If I was given a quote at the start of the job and I'd accepted it I'd pay without question if completed as expected even if I'd had second thoughts because someone else had pointed something out to me. Completely unfair not to without good reason

YoungBlueEyes

I agree with Gavin, GDB and wellies. 

I'm happy to pay to get a good job done. I understand that materials etc all going up and up and up. But I'd be upset if I discovered that I'd fallen into 'Michael extraction territory' just because you've taken one look at me and decided I'm ignorant and will pay whatever padding you've put on the bill.

Yes make a profit, no I don't expect to pay £1k for tiles if that's what they cost you. But don't round the numbers way up, then get snitty if I ask a question about it, telling me I should have done my research/due diligence.

Yes I may be ignorant and incapable of doing it myself, but I don't expect to have to pay through the nose just because you can get away with it. 

Doozergirl

We're so far off topic here, it's untrue.  

Shall we rein it back in and make it about the OP instead of getting angry about hypothetical situations involving ourselves and imaginary tradespeople?  

It's starting to look really insensitive when the OP included some serious MH concerns, particularly.  

ThisIsWeird

A quote is a quote. It doesn't really matter how detailed or not it is (tho' it should, obviously, make fully clear what actual work will be carried out, and the choice of materials if this has a bearing on quality or finish).  If a customer desires a detailed, itemised quote, with a priced materials breakdown, then they ask for this from the outset.

This customer accepted the provided quote with the two, all-in, figures.

L'L's hubby began the work and, as far as we know, there have been no issues with this - other than the seemingly-correct decision to delay rendering due to the weather. If there have been other issues, then the customer and builder talk these out in the normal manner - the customer presumably asks 'why?', and the builder explains. One or other or both understand more, accept the explanation, and move on, with agreed changes if needed.

The customer is 'entitled' to ask what they want, but the builder is equally entitled to say 'No' if it's an unreasonable request, or if it has no bearing on the actual agreed work taking place. If they choose to answer an 'unreasonable' request, that's their call.

I would suggest that this customer's late request for itemised materials invoices was not only 'unreasonable' - ie they have no entitlement to these - but it also carries at least an implication of a lack of trust in the builder. Most folk would have enough awareness to understand the almost certain consequences of asking such a sensitive question, with all it might imply. And they should also understand that a 'No' from the builder should be the end of the matter.

This customer seemingly didn't have that level of awareness, and compounded the issue by also not accepting 'no' as an answer. Worse, she became argumentative and belligerent.

Based on what we have been told, I'd suggest that this customer is entirely in the wrong.

I don't understand some folk's comments that the amount they are being charged for materials is important, and that they'd rather the agreed quote had an inflated labour charge than the builder adding a %-age to the materials. If two quotes are identical, then what the heck does it matter? That's the quote - take it or leave it. If you take it, keep schtum from then on.

L'L', this has got to be your hubby's choice. I'd suggest that he protects himself whether he continues with the work or ends the contract. By that I mean, if his decision is that he refuses to work there any more, then he needs to have evidence of what forced his decision. Putting this in writing to them is, I think, a good way (I don't know if my previous example is good, but that's the kind of thing that needs to be put down so that no-one can claim "He never said nuffink"). It should explain what took place, and be succinct and frank enough to describe how it escalated to the point where your hubby can reasonably claim 'trust has been lost'. If he simply tells them - "Sorry - I will not complete the job", then he might leave himself open to all sorts of accusations, and I'd bet a fair amount that the boyfriend will ultimately side with his girl.

And 'protect' himself should he offer to continue with the work by redressing the current power-balance, or whatever we can call it. Ie, this lady needs to accept it was an unreasonable request, accept that your hubby does not have to comply - and has no intention of doing so, accept that if she persists with either this or her belligerent behaviour, your husband will cancel the contract and leave.

If either scenario isn't addressed fully, then your husband will almost certainly continue to feel stress, and I fear to a much greater extent. For instance, if he just walks and this lady threatens or even begins legal action against him, you will be on a long walk to hell, even if at the end she gets nowhere. Seriously, nail that one. Get in writing what happened, and your reasons for terminating the contract if they don't calm down. Show that you have gone beyond the call in trying to be fair with them.

Or, should he get to the point where he carries on with the work, it has to be after some contrition, or at least full acceptance by this lady, that it's on the original agreed terms, and no more belligerence.

With either outcome, your hubby should feel both exonerated and confident he's been fair.

Good luck - I really hope she realises her behaviour was unacceptable, and things can move on. 

Anthony147

I hope the OP is well and things are sorted out.

Although the specific post has been derailed I’ll add an important and already said point - it’s about the PROFESSIONAL being TRANSPARENT on any mark up they are adding and of course the why (For example - tell them I add xx% on all materials for sourcing, guaranteeing they are correct and covering any corrections required).

As there’s no common formula on mark ups - automatically expecting the customer to know is setting up for bad feeling and a sour taste later.

Whilst some will say the price is the price - again that’s about volunteering pertinent information to the customer If I’m being charged Labour at £300 per day but the markup adds £xxx a day across the job - unless I know where I’m spending the money I’m likely to expect a total cost per day level of finish. 

That’s ignoring how customers will feel when inevitably a friend tells them those materials would have only been £xxx at retail and trades don’t pay retail.

It all boils down to the TRADESPERSON ensuring the customer understands what they are paying, what for and that it feels fair to them. The customer is not the expert so no assumptions should be made about their knowledge or understanding of how a tradesperson operates.

ThisIsWeird

We've all seen building costs soar over the past few years, coupled with a shortage of builders. Quotes for work were what? 40, 50, even 100% higher than the years before?

How much of this increase was down to 'materials', and how much to 'labour'? I suspect both. Materials certainly increased significantly in price, but with a shortage of labour, builders could also pick and choose the jobs they wanted to take on. If anyone tries to tell me that labour charges didn't also often increase to suit this increased demand, then I'm a whatsit. Builders could pick and choose the most lucrative projects.

Bottom line is the bottom line - ie the figure at the bottom of the quote. Matters not how it has been made up. The customer usually doesn't know how it was made up; a builder is as unlikely to provide a detailed materials price list as they are to indicate their new, increased, possibly-'opportunistic' hourly labour cost. You accept it or you do not. If you do accept it, you don't challenge it later (except in exceptional circumstances).

mr_stripey

Anthony147 said:

I hope the OP is well and things are sorted out.

Although the specific post has been derailed I’ll add an important and already said point - it’s about the PROFESSIONAL being TRANSPARENT on any mark up they are adding and of course the why (For example - tell them I add xx% on all materials for sourcing, guaranteeing they are correct and covering any corrections required).

As there’s no common formula on mark ups - automatically expecting the customer to know is setting up for bad feeling and a sour taste later.

Whilst some will say the price is the price - again that’s about volunteering pertinent information to the customer If I’m being charged Labour at £300 per day but the markup adds £xxx a day across the job - unless I know where I’m spending the money I’m likely to expect a total cost per day level of finish. 

That’s ignoring how customers will feel when inevitably a friend tells them those materials would have only been £xxx at retail and trades don’t pay retail.

It all boils down to the TRADESPERSON ensuring the customer understands what they are paying, what for and that it feels fair to them. The customer is not the expert so no assumptions should be made about their knowledge or understanding of how a tradesperson operates.

Disagree. You don't walk around Tesco and see their cost prices, or how much they've marked up a roast chicken. Nor do you know their operational overheads, or the market forces.

A tradesperson will price a job on a variety of conditions and will inevitable mark up materials by an amount. This amount will vary based on how much they "want" or "need" the job. If they are very busy with a big backlog then it might be a larger mark up. Either way, they don't need to inform the customer. The price the job as competitively as they see fit.

Anthony147

mr_stripey said:

Anthony147 said:

I hope the OP is well and things are sorted out.

Although the specific post has been derailed I’ll add an important and already said point - it’s about the PROFESSIONAL being TRANSPARENT on any mark up they are adding and of course the why (For example - tell them I add xx% on all materials for sourcing, guaranteeing they are correct and covering any corrections required).

As there’s no common formula on mark ups - automatically expecting the customer to know is setting up for bad feeling and a sour taste later.

Whilst some will say the price is the price - again that’s about volunteering pertinent information to the customer If I’m being charged Labour at £300 per day but the markup adds £xxx a day across the job - unless I know where I’m spending the money I’m likely to expect a total cost per day level of finish. 

That’s ignoring how customers will feel when inevitably a friend tells them those materials would have only been £xxx at retail and trades don’t pay retail.

It all boils down to the TRADESPERSON ensuring the customer understands what they are paying, what for and that it feels fair to them. The customer is not the expert so no assumptions should be made about their knowledge or understanding of how a tradesperson operates.

Disagree. You don't walk around Tesco and see their cost prices, or how much they've marked up a roast chicken. Nor do you know their operational overheads, or the market forces.

A tradesperson will price a job on a variety of conditions and will inevitable mark up materials by an amount. This amount will vary based on how much they "want" or "need" the job. If they are very busy with a big backlog then it might be a larger mark up. Either way, they don't need to inform the customer. The price the job as competitively as they see fit.

And there it is - The shop comparison, Trades are not supplying a product, they are offering a service.

There is no registered profession where provision of product does not have regulations regarding transparency of added costs when products are provided and charges / markup added

As for adding an “amount” - The “amount” is the crux of the issue as without knowing it beforehand leaves the customer able to feel misled, taking advantage of and being a mug.

No trades don’t have to do it but actually declaring it transparently would as said curtail the issue.

Section62

Anthony147 said:

And there it is - The shop comparison, Trades are not supplying a product, they are offering a service.

There is no registered profession where provision of product does not have regulations regarding transparency of added costs when products are provided and charges / markup added

As for adding an “amount” - The “amount” is the crux of the issue as without knowing it beforehand leaves the customer able to feel misled, taking advantage of and being a mug.

No trades don’t have to do it but actually declaring it transparently would as said curtail the issue.

Please, read Doozergirl's last post again.

It is a valid discussion whether it is fair for traders to have a markup on materials, but in the circumstances the better place for that discussion would be in a different thread.

Building isn't a "registered profession".  Traders generally supply both a product and a service.

The hypotheticals are distracting from giving the OP the advice they and their husband needed.