Customer demanding receipts

DullGreyGuy

Risteard said:

Gavin83 said:

Is there any reason he can’t supply the receipts? Regardless of who’s right or wrong this surely would have prevented a lot of the later fallout.

I would advise against ever doing this. These are none of the customer's business and form no part of the contract.

It depends exactly what was agreed/said... as I say, garages normally say parts/materials will be at manufacturer's list price in which case the price they've paid is totally irrelevant. 

If however the agreement was that materials would be at cost then there are grounds for challenge if the customer believes that the agreement is being breached and the trader is adding margin. 

DullGreyGuy

in_my_wellies said:

I'd expect the business to add some cost to the materials to cover time and effort ordering / collecting them.

There are a couple of counter points:

1) If you fix the cost of the materials in your quote then you are exposed to the risk that the materials increase notably which you have to absorb. 

2) If you inflate the price to cover the labour of ordering etc then if the part becomes faulty then you'd have to refund that too whereas if you put the labour of managing the order into the order cost the refund for the faulty part is lower

GDB2222

I think the op should take over the customer communication side of things entirely, so all her husband needs to do is the work. 

The op can then explain the issues clearly to the customer, as she has done in this thread, and leave the customer with the simple option whether they want to end the contract or to leave hubby in peace to finish the job at the quoted price. 

deano2099

mr_stripey said:

Disagree. You don't walk around Tesco and see their cost prices, or how much they've marked up a roast chicken. Nor do you know their operational overheads, or the market forces.

That's correct, but at the same time the supply cost is not a massive trade secret. If the CEO of Tesco was suffering from mental health issues because someone really wanted to know the trade price of a roast chicken, it might be easier just to say what it was. It's not right, but it's often a better solution. Yes, it's galling to give into unreasonable people but sometimes that's the best thing to do for you.

The point many are making is that it's absolutely fine for a builder to add mark-up on materials, at whatever level they want. This is true. But because this is true it follows that there's little harm in actually providing the receipts if that'll make the customer happier.

Essentially the thing to weigh up here is if providing the receipts is likely to calm the customer down, or wind them up further. That may depend on how much the mark-up was. It may also depend on why the customer was asking (some people are just control freaks that want all the data they can get).

It doesn't help the OP to know that their husband is in the right. They know that already. It's about the best way out of a difficult situation.

Tucosalamanca

GDB2222 said:

I think the op should take over the customer communication side of things entirely, so all her husband needs to do is the work. 

The op can then explain the issues clearly to the customer, as she has done in this thread, and leave the customer with the simple option whether they want to end the contract or to leave hubby in peace to finish the job at the quoted price. 

That's a sensible proposal. I know a few tradespeople who operate like this, seems to work well.
Keeping a good written record is essential.
After a conversation, I always follow up with an email 'following our conversation, just to confirm that....' or something along those lines. It can help prevent any misunderstandings further down the road (and also stops me from forgetting!).

Gavin83

Doozergirl said:

We're so far off topic here, it's untrue.  

Shall we rein it back in and make it about the OP instead of getting angry about hypothetical situations involving ourselves and imaginary tradespeople?  

It's starting to look really insensitive when the OP included some serious MH concerns, particularly.  

I don't think we are off topic. There's the issue at hand but even if this is resolved it's likely to occur again, and again, and again....

Among the discussion there's a lot of advice on how to help avoid this situation occurring in the future. Given the MH concerns I can't see how that advice isn't useful to both the OP and others reading this thread. Naturally like most advice people are free to ignore it but that's their choice, at least it's there. At the very least it might offer some idea of why the customer is reacting the way she is rather than everyone just labelling her as unreasonable. Most disagreements like this are down to a misunderstanding between the various parties and unnecessary escalation and trying to see it from the other side can help to reduce this fallout.

Anyway I've said all I can on the subject so I'll bow out and let it 'get back on topic'.

liberty_lily

Just a very quick response as I'm about to go out.....

Thank you all so much from me and DH for taking the time and effort to reply. Be assured we are taking all your helpful and most appreciated advice on board 😊

A few quick points -

I have started compiling a spreadsheet of all the materials costings (haven't done one since the days of reclaiming bank charges so a bit rusty, lol!) and will forward to the customer asap. 

Because of the way the whole thing has been messing with his head, DH would definitely prefer not to return to the rendering job.

He also has a job offer (paid employment, yippee!) where they would like him to start immediately, so whilst we were both overcome by the kindness of your offer Twopenny 💐, I'm afraid he won't be able to accept. We both hope you find some reliable trades who will do a beautiful job for you 🙂

He has managed to secure a GP appointment for next Friday, the earliest he could get. It's a weight off my mind just knowing he'll be able to talk to someone else about his feelings etc....

GDB2222

There’s a problem with just walking away from the job. In principle, the customer can find another builder to finish the job, and, if the total cost is more than the original quote, the customer can sue for the difference.

I therefore think it would be prudent to put in writing your reasons for being unable to complete the contract, ie the customer has been critical and this has caused health issues. This may inflame the situation, so you’ll need to think about how to word this as tactfully as possible. 

It may simply come down to saying hubby can’t finish the job because of health issues, but I would say something!

liberty_lily

Hi all and again thanks so much from me and DH for all your helpful replies on this thread!

I just wanted to update with the latest developments....

We sent the spreadsheet of materials/costs. This was not acknowledged. 

DH has started at his new place of employment and - coupled with having seen his GP who agreed it was best he avoided the stresses of being a self-employed builder - is feeling much happier overall. 

Last Thursday evening he received an email from the customer in question. We expected this and acknowledge that he would have been better to do as GDB2222 suggested above and make contact himself explaining his health situation/reasons for not continuing. Sadly, I've not been on the forum for a while and only saw this post today.

Anyway, what's done is done and now we're going to have to man up and deal with it.

The email was not headed 'Letter Before Action' but along with a myriad of complaints and moaning - some of which is justified (DH not returning to site), but much of which is not (claiming that he has not used the correct materials to secure the insulation panels - this is absolute rubbish as he not only used the recommended adhesive and mechanical fixings, but actually used more of the latter than was necessary, in a belt and braces approach).

The following is an extract from her lengthy email -

"It seems obvious that you will not be returning to do the job you have been paid for. I have sought legal advice and if I do not receive a satisfactory response within the next seven days you will leave me no choice but to demand a full refund of my money from you as well as take legal action to cover costs incurred to have all work done by you removed and disposed of as no other builder can or would finish the works you have started as they would not be able to guarantee your work. 

Therefore I will be expecting to recover from you £19,694.41 -

1. £5135.18 for materials 

2. £4330 for poor workmanship and not completed

3. £1000 for wall ties incomplete

4. £284 for camera investigation for wall ties

5. £2500 for wall ties to be removed and redone (only if wall ties fail inspection)

6. £6445.23 for removal and disposal of current works done and preparation for new contractor to complete EWI"

To illustrate her exaggeration - the wall ties she says are incomplete and wants refunding for - there are around just three wall ties not done. This is only because before starting the job, she said her then boyfriend would be removing the old render but this didn't happen as she dumped him and DH had to do it. DH had done most of the removal before the scaffolding arrived on site but this little area (maximum 1 sq m) in the apex of the gable end couldn't be reached without the scaffolding and he hadn't got round to doing it yet.

Obviously we don't want DH to face legal action as his mental health would struggle to cope...not to mention we don't have that kind of money sitting around. 

It looks as though she's demanding a return of the £5135.18 + £4330 (£9465.18) which is what she has paid DH for materials and labour, whilst only taking (or considering taking) legal action for the additional £10,229.23.

DH feels much of her email is 'bluster' and our adult son has suggested we call her bluff in some way, but nonetheless DH is inclined towards offering to complete the work - during his holiday perhaps. 

Would this be a stupid suggestion to make?

twopenny

Yes is my immediate reaction.
Can you respond asap that you have read her demands and stand by the quality of work. 
Request proof that the workmanship is not up to the job from an independent builder.
Request proof of how many other builders have said they would not complete the work.
That you are taking legal advice as he is currently under medical supervision. Just to call her bluff. It also gives you time.
You only have her word for it that she has taken legal advice and how much effort she has made for someone to complete the work.
Oh, and if it is to be removed, charge for the extra work 

How tough are you? I had a builder whose wife did the phoning. She was leathal without a grain of compassion.