Overpayment letter sent for £20,000 - Pension age error / PLEASE HELP!

Alice_Holt

calcotti said:

nachfee said:

Alice_Holt UC). 

…
ii) Because this is complicated I'd ask the local CA office to get guidance from their Expert Advice Team (EAT), particularly around if (i) is worthwhile.
….

I didn't know there was an Expert Advice Team. I will be asking for them when I call them on Monday.

I think you will not be able to contact the Expert Advice Team directly. They exist to support the advisers and Alice was suggesting you say to the adviser you see that they may want to get advice from the Expert Advice Team.

      Indeed, as a client the OP is not able to contact EAT, but the CA adviser / office can forward a query to them via email. EAT can be a valuable resource for your local office, when dealing with specialist / difficult cases.

OP - I'd ask the adviser if they can do this, as your case is complicated (particularly if you appeal). EAT may be aware of relevant case law, etc. If the local office are able to raise your case with EAT, it will take a few working days for EAT to get back to them. 
 Having all the paperwork / facts / dates / chronology to hand when you contact your local office will help the advisers to help you.
  Be aware that due to the very high levels of client enquiries faced by this (primarily) volunteer staffed charity, there is likely to be a wait to get an appointment.   

HillStreetBlues

nachfee said:

I want to take mum away to where we live (abroad), close everything here and settle this as amicable as possible with the DWP/UC so we don't leave any stains or debts behind.

The fault lies with the DWP, if they had correctly closed the account of your parents UC claim they would have claimed PC  and there would be none of this stress for your mum and your family.

There will no no stain left behind, if there is debt let the DWP worry about that. Do what's best for your mum and family.

nachfee

calcotti said:

nachfee said:

calcotti said:

HillStreetBlues said:

With council tax,  if your parents were paying any (each council sets their own council tax reduction)

Only for working age claimants - the rules are set nationally for pension age claimants. I think you probably realised this because you also said

HillStreetBlues said:

..once you mum gets pension credit the council tax must be zero.

Regarding your other post

HillStreetBlues said:

Not sure if this will be any help in your case, but even Government websites state.

If one of you has reached State Pension age

If only one of you has reached State Pension age, you and your partner can still claim Universal Credit as a couple. Your Universal Credit claim will stop when you both reach State Pension age.

So why wasn't stopped? they must have the information on record to do this.

It seems because of information like this, they would have thought their UC stopped at that time.
Also you could point out that it wasn't a change of circumstance as their birth day that they had on record hadn't changed.
(UC had all the information required to correctly end the claim)

We’ve covered this in previous posts.
UC didn’t stop because UC made a mistake. This is official error. However UC regulations say that overpayments of UC are always recoverable. Despite the assurances, mentioned in one of my earlier replies, that DWP would not chase recovery of overpayments resulting from official error the practice has been to chase all overpayments, as permitted by the legislation. The legislation was a deliberate departure from previous legacy benefit rules which excluded recovery of overpayments caused by official error. The UC rules removes the incentive for DWP to get claims paid correctly and, when required, revised in a timely fashion knowing that if they make a mistake that can recover anyway.

So you think it may be a very difficult case for us to actually dispute the official error? I may have this impression after reading above or have I misunderstood?

Thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it.

It’s clearly official error in my opinion. I think the route is likely to be fully detailing the circumstances and asking DWP to
i) consider offsetting against other entitlements when calculating any overpayment , and/or
ii) consider that the error is official error and include notional enticement to other benefits to calculate what, if any, loss to the public purse has occurred and then waive recovery action in part or in full.

However it’s complex which is why you need specialist input.

Obviously if she does now leave UK they will have no mechanism to recover.

I see. I will definitely ask CA to help me with this points. I really appreciate you detailing them for me so I can ask them. I may be able to ask for a solicitor.

I understand that they may not be have means to recover but I don't want her to have any problems coming back to the UK as she has my sister here who she will likely visit in the future.

Can I just say thank for your time, effort and detailed information. It's amazing people like you come to this forum and offer help to others with so much greatly explained information.

nachfee

Alice_Holt said:

calcotti said:

nachfee said:

Alice_Holt UC). 

…
ii) Because this is complicated I'd ask the local CA office to get guidance from their Expert Advice Team (EAT), particularly around if (i) is worthwhile.
….

I didn't know there was an Expert Advice Team. I will be asking for them when I call them on Monday.

I think you will not be able to contact the Expert Advice Team directly. They exist to support the advisers and Alice was suggesting you say to the adviser you see that they may want to get advice from the Expert Advice Team.

      Indeed, as a client the OP is not able to contact EAT, but the CA adviser / office can forward a query to them via email. EAT can be a valuable resource for your local office, when dealing with specialist / difficult cases.

OP - I'd ask the adviser if they can do this, as your case is complicated (particularly if you appeal). EAT may be aware of relevant case law, etc. If the local office are able to raise your case with EAT, it will take a few working days for EAT to get back to them. 
 Having all the paperwork / facts / dates / chronology to hand when you contact your local office will help the advisers to help you.
  Be aware that due to the very high levels of client enquiries faced by this (primarily) volunteer staffed charity, there is likely to be a wait to get an appointment.   

Thank yo for both you and Calcotti to clarify that. I understand now how it works.

Yes, I'm sure they are quite busy at the moment for sure. I understand that.

I will be printing the journal entries and bank statements. I cannot think of anything else she may need. Apart from writing a chronology of events so the CA receives everything organised. That would be a good idea.

So, if the CA gives us an appointment months later, how would be the best course of action to deal with the UC department or any DWP visiting mum? Should I check of a solicitor would be able to draft a letter?
Would it be worth considering asking PC if they could confirm mum would have been eligible to receive PC from October 2021?

nachfee

HillStreetBlues said:

nachfee said:

I want to take mum away to where we live (abroad), close everything here and settle this as amicable as possible with the DWP/UC so we don't leave any stains or debts behind.

The fault lies with the DWP, if they had correctly closed the account of your parents UC claim they would have claimed PC  and there would be none of this stress for your mum and your family.

There will no no stain left behind, if there is debt let the DWP worry about that. Do what's best for your mum and family.

What if she comes back to the UK and is flagged at immigration (she is a British citizen) as having a debt with the government? She has children and grandchildren here.

If I could, I would leave with her tomorrow but I need her to go to an NHS appointment to see the severity of a condition she newly developed and then we can follow it up where she will move as she would need to register there and so on, takes time. Also need to close the house (rented) and get rid of all furniture, etc, pack it and move it overseas.

HillStreetBlues

nachfee said:

What if she comes back to the UK and is flagged at immigration (she is a British citizen) as having a debt with the government? She has children and grandchildren here.

If I could, I would leave with her tomorrow but I need her to go to an NHS appointment to see the severity of a condition she newly developed and then we can follow it up where she will move as she would need to register there and so on, takes time. Also need to close the house (rented) and get rid of all furniture, etc, pack it and move it overseas.

If she is  British citizen can't see anyway of them stopping her coming into the country.
I agree with others it's the DWP mistake so nothing criminal.
If you mother has no assists (i see it's a rental property) , then the only  way the DWP  can get any  payment is via other benefits

The DWP can't get what your mother doesn't have

calcotti

nachfee said: Should I check of a solicitor would be able to draft a letter?

Solicitors are not generally much use for benefits matters. Start with CA, much will depend on the capability of your local office.

If mum is staying in UK she may want to look at whether she might be eligible for Attendance Allowance (assuming she doesn’t already get it or PIP).

Alice_Holt

I, too, wouldn't involve a solicitor.

If your local advice agency can't help, then as calcotti has suggested appeal yourself on the basis that the recovery amount is incorrect and should be calculated after offsetting the entitlement to Pension Credit and Housing Benefit that would have been payable had UC correctly ended the claim at SPA.

The appeal is 2 stage:
i) Asking the DWP to reconsider their decision (Mandatory Reconsideration - appeal rights should be detailed on the decision letter)
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/problems-with-your-payment/challenging-a-universal-credit-decision-mandatory-consideration/

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/universal-credit-uc/uc-mandatory-reconsiderations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683380/if-you-disagree-with-a-decision-made-by-dwp.PDF

ii) When you get the DWP's response (a Mandatory Reconsideration Notice), then appeal to tribunal:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/appeal-a-social-security-benefits-decision-form-sscs1

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/problems-with-your-payment/appealing-a-universal-credit-decision-at-a-tribunal/

The tribunal judge, who will be much better versed in benefit legislation and case law than a normal solicitor, will then decide if the DWP decision to recover all UC payments is legally correct or not. 

nachfee

Hi @calcotti, @Alice_Holt and @HillStreetBlues

I have contacted CA and they say I need to ask for a mandatory reconsideration. There was no appointment and I didn't get through anyone on the phone so I used the chat online service.

This are the two links given to me:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/benefits-introduction/problems-with-benefits-and-tax-credits/challenging-benefit-decisions/challenging-a-decision-by-the-dwp-or-hmrc/challenging-a-benefit-decision-mandatory-reconsideration/

and:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683380/if-you-disagree-with-a-decision-made-by-dwp.PDF

It's basically what Alice wrote above this message. Im just making sure this is it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks and hope you all had a good weekend. 

nachfee

When we are filling in the form, can I add things like:
-2021 Lockdown
- Breast cancer treatment

Apart from not knowing she herself needed to do anything about her UC - even though website states it stops once you reach Pension Age, so there was no lack of disclosure of information - mum was at the time going through a lot of stress in the form of full lockdown period and Breast cancer treatments?

I just want to make sure adding this onto the form may be worthwhile.

I also checked what benefits they were receiving:
- Standard allowance (as in a couple)
- Housing and,
- Limited capability for work and work-related activity.