Overpayment letter sent for £20,000 - Pension age error / PLEASE HELP!

calcotti

HillStreetBlues said:

calcotti said:

No they do ‘set’ the rules for pension age claimants. The rules for pension age claimants are prescribed. Although councils have to have a scheme they have to adopt  the prescribed rules in respect of pension age claimants.

But any council is able to go beyond these rules  if it's in that persons interest
So council A might be able to charge X under the rules, but council B might exempt  X being charged, so council B has set a different rule.

I can’t imagine any local authority providing a more generous scheme than legislated for - but I take your point.

nachfee

diystarter7 said:

Hi OP
If you have time, do let us know.
Thanks to @calcotti for the very helpful post.

Good luck.

Sorry, I may have missed it. What should I let you know?

calcotti

nachfee said:

diystarter7 said:

Hi OP
If you have time, do let us know.
Thanks to @calcotti for the very helpful post.

Good luck.

Sorry, I may have missed it. What should I let you know?

We would just be interested to know how you get on.

nachfee

Rubyroobs said:

nachfee said:

calcotti said:

elsien said:

How old is your mum and when did she reach pension age? 

Is there any sort of breakdown on her journal to show how they’ve reached the 20K figure? 

All UC paid since she reached pension age will be an overpayment.

OP, I think you need to get expert advice. When you go to CAb go with all the paperwork for both mum and dad with full financial details including all details of what benefits they been getting. They may be able to calculate what the benefit entitlement should have been if correctly claimed and then I would ask them to help them draft a letter to argue that DWP should offset the UC overpayment against the correct entitlement.

To be clear - has mum been getting her State Pension?

Yes, that would be the best case scenario and what is hoping. 

I will call on Monday and hope to push for that, it makes sense. We called PC today because UC just said basically she is over 65, anything should be with PC from now on. So I started the claim for PC and are awaiting for the callback. 

She has not been getting her State Pension. We found out today, through her bank statements that she didn’t get her UC.  We called and they said it was closed due to age.
They realised this after my dads passing as I had to call them to inform them because the council has failed to give me the reference number for the Tell Us Once service. 

Due to cancelling the telephone contract, instead of moving move to a separate one they just closed her number automatically so she never got any text messages from DWP.

So after UC saying it was closed, I quickly started the claim for PC so she doesn’t go months without money. No one can help for this month. UC says they can’t help PC say we need to wait for callback.
The way they have design this system
in my humble opinion is a recipe for disaster. Many people that age are not that literate with computers and bureaucracy.
They should at least send an email or message in the journal that the age is changing soon and UC will be stopped. 

It has been a complete unfortunate and messy situation. 

Unfortunately some pension credit claims are taking four or five months to process currently. Sorry I know that's not what you want to hear. I would put a claim in asap for housing benefit and council tax reduction if you haven't already done so as that will likely be awarded more quickly and then is she is awarded Guarantee pension credit she should get rent covered in full.

Yes, Im going to have a look this Monday to go ahead with that, But in all honestly, we may just forget all about applying for anything again (PC) and ask mum to live overseas with me and close everything. I just want to make sure to go further with this, argue that the purse did not loose any money, maybe dispute a better repayment amount, and if any repayments need to be organised, they so be it.
I can't believe they can just use this and ask for all the money back when you are absolutely entitled to it. She just didn't know she needed to notify she was of Pension Age when a not so complicated automated system would have picked that up and avoid a beareaved vulnerable person go through unnecessary stress.

nachfee

Alice_Holt said:

 My thoughts on this align with calcotti's.

i) I'd be disputing the amount of UC payable. I'd argue that the amount recoverable should be after deduction of all Pension Credit and Housing Benefit, due after Sept 2021.   
I'd run that argument to tribunal. That the amount repayable is only the excess UC receivable over and above the amounts due had PC & HB been claimed. 
(For legacy benefits offsetting was taken into account, and it's possible there may be some case law concerning UC). 

ii) Because this is complicated I'd ask the local CA office to get guidance from their Expert Advice Team (EAT), particularly around if (i) is worthwhile.

iii) I'd ask UC exercise their discretion (given the circumstances) not to recover the overpayment.
(But sadly, this discretion is rarely used.
However, not having an entitlement to SP, but only to another means-tested benefit, may be a consideration.)

iii) I'd certainly involve the MP when things become clearer. If you are allocated a caseworker from your local CA office - be guided by them as to the best time to ask the MP to intervene with the DWP.

Thank you Alice,

I didn't know there was an Expert Advice Team. I will be asking for them when I call them on Monday.
Im going to make some notes with all your responses.

nachfee

calcotti said:

HillStreetBlues said:

With council tax,  if your parents were paying any (each council sets their own council tax reduction)

Only for working age claimants - the rules are set nationally for pension age claimants. I think you probably realised this because you also said

HillStreetBlues said:

..once you mum gets pension credit the council tax must be zero.

Regarding your other post

HillStreetBlues said:

Not sure if this will be any help in your case, but even Government websites state.

If one of you has reached State Pension age

If only one of you has reached State Pension age, you and your partner can still claim Universal Credit as a couple. Your Universal Credit claim will stop when you both reach State Pension age.

So why wasn't stopped? they must have the information on record to do this.

It seems because of information like this, they would have thought their UC stopped at that time.
Also you could point out that it wasn't a change of circumstance as their birth day that they had on record hadn't changed.
(UC had all the information required to correctly end the claim)

We’ve covered this in previous posts.
UC didn’t stop because UC made a mistake. This is official error. However UC regulations say that overpayments of UC are always recoverable. Despite the assurances, mentioned in one of my earlier replies, that DWP would not chase recovery of overpayments resulting from official error the practice has been to chase all overpayments, as permitted by the legislation. The legislation was a deliberate departure from previous legacy benefit rules which excluded recovery of overpayments caused by official error. The UC rules removes the incentive for DWP to get claims paid correctly and, when required, revised in a timely fashion knowing that if they make a mistake that can recover anyway.

So you think it may be a very difficult case for us to actually dispute the official error? I may have this impression after reading above or have I misunderstood?

Thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it.

nachfee

Also to answer the question, my parents were exempt of council tax. They paid no council tax. I re-applied for the exemption again last week as the claim was done under my dad's name.

calcotti

nachfee said:

Alice_Holt UC). 

…
ii) Because this is complicated I'd ask the local CA office to get guidance from their Expert Advice Team (EAT), particularly around if (i) is worthwhile.
….

I didn't know there was an Expert Advice Team. I will be asking for them when I call them on Monday.

I think you will not be able to contact the Expert Advice Team directly. They exist to support the advisers and Alice was suggesting you say to the adviser you see that they may want to get advice from the Expert Advice Team.

nachfee

calcotti said:

nachfee said:

diystarter7 said:

Hi OP
If you have time, do let us know.
Thanks to @calcotti for the very helpful post.

Good luck.

Sorry, I may have missed it. What should I let you know?

We would just be interested to know how you get on.

Thank you Calcotti,

I will let you know. I am quite nervous about all this. I feel so bad about mum going through this. She unfortunately has not been able t grasp the English language as well as needed to be clued on to all of this bureaucracy, despite multiple attempts at learning it. Once you hit an age, it's a tough one.
That year (2021) she went through breast cancer operations and treatment and we were on full lockdown so, if she never got a text message or a journal alert that her age was coming up to pension age, there is no way she would have been in the headspace to know this.
I mean, most people that generation aren't very tech savvy.

I know this isn't part of the argument but it truly sucks.

I will update Monday after a call with CAb.

I'm very unlikely pursuing mum to get any Pension Credit. I want to take mum away to where we live (abroad), close everything here and settle this as amicable as possible with the DWP/UC so we don't leave any stains or debts behind. If that means monthly payments, then sure. Hopefully a small amount because really, she wasn't at fault here.

I am in true shock of this system. A system that should be there for the vulnerable.

calcotti

nachfee said:

calcotti said:

HillStreetBlues said:

With council tax,  if your parents were paying any (each council sets their own council tax reduction)

Only for working age claimants - the rules are set nationally for pension age claimants. I think you probably realised this because you also said

HillStreetBlues said:

..once you mum gets pension credit the council tax must be zero.

Regarding your other post

HillStreetBlues said:

Not sure if this will be any help in your case, but even Government websites state.

If one of you has reached State Pension age

If only one of you has reached State Pension age, you and your partner can still claim Universal Credit as a couple. Your Universal Credit claim will stop when you both reach State Pension age.

So why wasn't stopped? they must have the information on record to do this.

It seems because of information like this, they would have thought their UC stopped at that time.
Also you could point out that it wasn't a change of circumstance as their birth day that they had on record hadn't changed.
(UC had all the information required to correctly end the claim)

We’ve covered this in previous posts.
UC didn’t stop because UC made a mistake. This is official error. However UC regulations say that overpayments of UC are always recoverable. Despite the assurances, mentioned in one of my earlier replies, that DWP would not chase recovery of overpayments resulting from official error the practice has been to chase all overpayments, as permitted by the legislation. The legislation was a deliberate departure from previous legacy benefit rules which excluded recovery of overpayments caused by official error. The UC rules removes the incentive for DWP to get claims paid correctly and, when required, revised in a timely fashion knowing that if they make a mistake that can recover anyway.

So you think it may be a very difficult case for us to actually dispute the official error? I may have this impression after reading above or have I misunderstood?

Thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it.

It’s clearly official error in my opinion. I think the route is likely to be fully detailing the circumstances and asking DWP to
i) consider offsetting against other entitlements when calculating any overpayment , and/or
ii) consider that the error is official error and include notional enticement to other benefits to calculate what, if any, loss to the public purse has occurred and then waive recovery action in part or in full.

However it’s complex which is why you need specialist input.

Obviously if she does now leave UK they will have no mechanism to recover.