Do EDF Install Economy 10 Meters and other Energy help questions

bery_451

EssexHebridean said:

As an example, across in the Eastern region I'm currently paying 16p/kWh during off peak, but 48p/kWh during peak times.

The theory about using electric heaters to hear your property during the off peak times stumbles on two points I'd say - the first is how much heating do you want in your property overnight - my current Off peak timeslot is 0011 > 0711 for example. Also electricity is still more expensive than gas - so on my rates gas would be cheaper if I was just using standard electric heaters (which I'm not). 

We shift a huge amount of load to overnight/off peak - including weekday showers when even at this time of year we can both just about get in there ahead of the rate switch. It's not happening at weekends though! 

Are you on Economy 7 or Economy 10 and is that 48p kWh electric includes vat at 5% and is the rate for direct debit for peak hours? Martin Lewis saying the current capped rate for electricity is 34.04p per kWh. So give or take 14p more expensive for Economy 7/10?

dunstonh

Smart meters know how many grams of co2 is emitted from your property, heck they smart enough to know what time you switched on your tv, or opened your fridge door hence they are called 'Smart' for a reason. Can traditional older meters work out how many showers you took that day, how many times you got the bottle of milk out from the fridge to make a cuppa? 

No they do not.  CO2 can be measured purely through unit count.   The in-house-display (which is not the meter) can then simply multiply the unit count by the CO2 figure and give you an indication.  The rest is completely wrong.  A meter doesn't know what devices are in use.

Are you on Economy 7 or Economy 10 and is that 48p kWh electric includes vat at 5% and is the rate for direct debit for peak hours? Martin Lewis saying the current capped rate for electricity is 34.04p per kWh. So give or take 14p more expensive for Economy 7/10?

The peak rate is above the single rate but the off peak is below.  Think of it  like a see saw where single price is level and off peak and peak are sitting on opposite sides of that.

seven hours of 7p (inc VAT) is brilliant news for many of us.   We are getting solar installed in a couple of months and will have no day use.  There will only be off peak draw at certain times of the year.  Lovely.

pochase

bery_451 said:

EssexHebridean said:

As an example, across in the Eastern region I'm currently paying 16p/kWh during off peak, but 48p/kWh during peak times.

The theory about using electric heaters to hear your property during the off peak times stumbles on two points I'd say - the first is how much heating do you want in your property overnight - my current Off peak timeslot is 0011 > 0711 for example. Also electricity is still more expensive than gas - so on my rates gas would be cheaper if I was just using standard electric heaters (which I'm not). 

We shift a huge amount of load to overnight/off peak - including weekday showers when even at this time of year we can both just about get in there ahead of the rate switch. It's not happening at weekends though! 

Are you on Economy 7 or Economy 10 and is that 48p kWh electric includes vat at 5% and is the rate for direct debit for peak hours? Martin Lewis saying the current capped rate for electricity is 34.04p per kWh. So give or take 14p more expensive for Economy 7/10?

You should really get yourself some tariff information based on the region you are in and the supplier you are with.

E7 is the tariff where you can see huge differences between suppliers and regions. @Dun@dunstonh posted the reason why he went from Bulb to EDF, 

0.2175p Night and 0.36755 day for bulb (plus VAT)
0.0670p Night and 0.51900 day for EDF  (plus VAT)

His new day rate is almost 18p over the cap price for single rate now, but for his usage it makes sense as he is using most of electricity at night. The more you se at night the better off you are.

E7 is not a tariff for vulnerable or poor people, it is a tariff for people who use a big chunk of electricity during off peak hours, and E7 is the only area where there is still a difference between suppliers, as the can set their prices for day and night rate however they want, as long as they follow the rule that at 4200KWh and a 58% day use and a 42% night use the cost needs to be the same as for 4200KWh for the single rate capped SVT.

So they can set the spread however they want within these parameters. It can be a extremely low night rate of 5p for night and almost 60p day, or it could be almost the same with only a few p between day and night rate.

You will need to to your own check of the market, even the same suppliers have huge difference depending on the region the customer is in, for example EDF has night rates as low as 5.88p to 15.51p (for direct debit). 

There are also huge difference between the way you pay. For example EDF has a 3.8p night rate on prepaid, but the night rate on direct debit is 11.72p....

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/government_energy_price_guarantee_prices._standard_variable_deemed_and_welcome._credit_meters.pdf?utm_source=awin&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=bau&utm_affiliate=181013&awc=1887_1672642853_794f125fe1b1e79f4262cf59adc922a9

So you need to do your own calculations. Check what you use at night and what you are using during the day over 12 months, check what region you are in and calculate your cost at single rate and E& and see if you save money for your current supplier. Then you can check if you are better off at another supplier using E7, there won't be a difference for single rate. But keep in mind that they might change their price for E7 in April again.

Regarding E10 from the last prices I have seen posted here there seems to be no big difference between day and night rate at least for some suppliers. Seems almost nobody posts the E10 rates, so there is no real comparison possible,

Astria

dunstonh said:

Smart meters know how many grams of co2 is emitted from your property, heck they smart enough to know what time you switched on your tv, or opened your fridge door hence they are called 'Smart' for a reason. Can traditional older meters work out how many showers you took that day, how many times you got the bottle of milk out from the fridge to make a cuppa? 

No they do not.  CO2 can be measured purely through unit count.   The in-house-display (which is not the meter) can then simply multiply the unit count by the CO2 figure and give you an indication.

and if the government does decide to do a "carbon tax", they'll simply add it to the unit cost as an additional tax, so it won't matter what meter you are using, you will be paying it.

EssexHebridean

bery_451 said:

EssexHebridean said:

As an example, across in the Eastern region I'm currently paying 16p/kWh during off peak, but 48p/kWh during peak times.

The theory about using electric heaters to hear your property during the off peak times stumbles on two points I'd say - the first is how much heating do you want in your property overnight - my current Off peak timeslot is 0011 > 0711 for example. Also electricity is still more expensive than gas - so on my rates gas would be cheaper if I was just using standard electric heaters (which I'm not). 

We shift a huge amount of load to overnight/off peak - including weekday showers when even at this time of year we can both just about get in there ahead of the rate switch. It's not happening at weekends though! 

Are you on Economy 7 or Economy 10 and is that 48p kWh electric includes vat at 5% and is the rate for direct debit for peak hours? Martin Lewis saying the current capped rate for electricity is 34.04p per kWh. So give or take 14p more expensive for Economy 7/10?

We're E7 - as has been explained already E10 is a legacy tariff that isn't offered any more. And yes we pay by DD. The Vat goes on top of the rates I've mentioned.  A revision to this - those rates are actually inclusive of the vat element. 

The average unit rate for our tariff with Octopus comes out at the capped rate of (roughly) 34p/kWh - but we use far more electricity at night, for heating, water, running appliances etc than we do during the day - and so in fact, for us, the average rate drops substantially from the capped rate. If we stopped using such a high percentage overnight though, that far higher day rate would quickly mean that it would not be cost effective for us. The key thing for us is that we have the night storage heaters - as I mentioned, using panel heaters overnight doesn't work for most people as the majority of the heat will have dissipated once it reaches a time of day that it is required. 

Yes - the Peak rate is roughly 14p a unit more expensive than someone on single rate would pay, while our off peak is roughly 18p a unit cheaper. This is how the "balance" to the cap works. I would expect that an E10 tariff would see an even higher "day" rate to balance off the 3 additional hours of off-peak - but I'm open to correction on that from anyone who has such a tariff and can confirm how it works.

E7 tariffs work brilliantly for those they are intended for - people using suitable heating systems for both rooms and water to use power overnight - if you are not that person though, and don't have any other significant way of load shifting (battery/EV charging etc) then I'd say it's a reasonable expectation that this sort of TOU tariff will not be for you. 

(edit to amend details re vat)

Scot_39

If the peak rate day rate works out more expensive over normal/fixed/variable rates for Economy 7 or 10 then how can this be suitable for Vulnerable poor people as it sounds much worse unless your a bat of course.

The most common answer is Night Storage Heaters for heat - and hot water immersion heater - running only overnight - for hot water. 

The clue is in the Night STORAGE Heaters and hot water tanks - heat overnight - but output heat the room over the full day / water used all day etc.

A modern HHR panel - I'm told by neighbour who upgraded - can generally last to midnight - without boost circuit - even on E7.

Older design - certainly on E7 (rather than E10 or equivalent - as charged 3 times daily ) can get very warm in early mornings - but notably colder in evenings - so rooms might be hot in AM - or need boost using plug in heat at peak rate - or too hot in AM - and OK in evening (the reason my neighbor upgraded to Quatums - after going to E7 for much cheaper than E10 off peak rates at the time).

My annual usage on E10 is around 70-75% off peak - since the Ofgem cap / EPG discount changes getting more marginal - from Jan 1st I now need over 53% night - it was 42% pre EPG - versus single rate to break even (*).

As of Jan - my off peak is c10p/kWh cheaper still than single rate EPG, my peak c12p more expensive. Other suppliers / regions E10 rates vary as wildly as E7 - from the few I have seen posting here

With all NSH heaters - that ratio went over 90% peak in recent cold snap.

In summer - much lower.  It might even be difficult to break even in summer months - if threshold keeps shifting.

Some people still manage to make E7 or E10 work for them - who are not on electric heating etc. - but that can require more personal effort. Like electric showering during E7 window (OK if up early for work - as often ends 7:00-7:30 - pain if not etc), running washing overnight on delayed start (OK if doesn't wake you - or your neighbors up - on a noisy spin etc.).

(*) Others with EOn on E7 in my region posting here - have seen the same pricing / break even balance shift - and some have posted about going single rate - as cannot hit that 50%+ level.

Scot_39

EssexHebridean said:

Yes - the Peak rate is roughly 14p a unit more expensive than someone on single rate would pay, while our off peak is roughly 18p a unit cheaper. This is how the "balance" to the cap works. I would expect that an E10 tariff would see an even higher "day" rate to balance off the 3 additional hours of off-peak - but I'm open to correction on that from anyone who has such a tariff and can confirm how it works.

In my case - E10 / EM / EonNext - a much lower off peak (night/aft/eve) discount - c10p less than SR

- but also a lower day premium - c12p more.

But like E7 - E10 no longer seems to have consistent rules - different region / different supplier - more like a ? day / ? night pricing lottery (arguably another Ofgem failing).  Seems even worse with EPG discounts.

Although I lose 2 hrs overnight (say 5am to 7 am in winter vs typical E7 ) - do get to use that 10p lower off-peak mid-afternoon (1-4pm winter ) and late evening as well (8-10pm winter).

Some of my neighbors jumped to E7 for much cheaper night rates - one then spent £2000+ upgrading at least 2 of his old NSH to modern HHR ones - as old ones struggled to retain heat.

bery_451

Cheers, is there like a site that compares Economy 7/10 non-smart meter tariffs from energy suppliers to find out the cheapest peak rate hours in the West Midlands Birmingham region?

Then I can compare that cheapest peak hours rate to the capped SVR rate to check if its worth it.

Just to clarify Economy 7 is better than Economy 10? I thought Economy 10 is better with 3 extra off-peak hours right?

Scot_39

bery_451 said:

Cheers, is there like a site that compares Economy 7/10 non-smart meter tariffs from energy suppliers to find out the cheapest peak rate hours in the West Midlands Birmingham region?

Then I can compare that cheapest peak hours rate to the capped SVR rate to check if its worth it.

Just to clarify Economy 7 is better than Economy 10? I thought Economy 10 is better with 3 extra off-peak hours right?

It appears to be virtually impossible - to move onto E10 - as a new customer. 

Despite some c3.5m E7 and c0.5m E10/Telemetry meters in use as of last year - they are not well supported.

The current fuss over the EPG isn't an EPG - with E7 prices jumping up c10% for some - just another example - of a significant minorities treatment by govt, Ofgem it's regulator - and the industry.

Even E7 is a legacy tariff with some - EDF others ?.

Seen one user generate a table for SE region - there may be others.

Gerry1

bery_451 said:

Just to clarify Economy 7 is better than Economy 10? I thought Economy 10 is better with 3 extra off-peak hours right?

Depends on what you want.  E10 is probably more convenient because some of the lower rate hours are at convenient times so it's easier and safer to use things such as washing machines, tumble dryers, immersion heaters, ovens etc.  However, the rates may not be so competitive.  It all depends on your usage pattern, so you'd have to guesstimate this and do the sums to see which would be cheaper.

E7 may not be suitable if you have existing night storage heaters or underfloor heating or similar items that don't have sufficient capacity / insulation to stay hot from around 7am to midnight.

Even if you manage to switch to an E10 tariff, before very long it may become uncompetitive or be withdrawn.  It may end up like trying to find a five-star leaded petrol pump.