UKPC ticket, not sure how and limited time to respond!

goonergaz70

Coupon-mad said:

Can't download that on this device.  Can you host it using Dropbox as we'll happily click on that.

Thanks but the deadline was yesterday and I didn't want to risk missing it so uploaded shortly before you message - but thanks for all your help, essentially (as I said previously) I literally stitched the 2 letters together, added photos (including uploading a comparison with the good vs 'my' sign posts).

So fingers crossed.

Thanks again for all your help, I will report back with the response.  

goonergaz70

Ok, so I got my update today - I have 7 days to respond. UKPN have uploaded their evidence, essentially a plan showing where all their signs (with the small print) are in the car park and the main one at the entrance (obviously just showing it as a nice clear sign - ignoring the fact you can't see it easily as a driver).  They also uploaded the contract with the land owner, I need to check the dates  in date, but it's interesting only 31 of the 35 pages are included with quite a bit redacted.

Fruitcake

Please show us UKPC's WS, especially the landowner contract. Only redact personal information, but please leave in everything that is already in the public domain, including names of paralegals and the identities of the contract signatures.

Please tell us if the claimant has redacted anything.

Upload the evidence to Dropbox or similar and post the link here.

Castle

goonergaz70 said:

Fruitcake said:

Please show us UKPC's WS, especially the landowner contract. Only redact personal information, but please leave in everything that is already in the public domain, including names of paralegals and the identities of the contract signatures.

Please tell us if the claimant has redacted anything.

Upload the evidence to Dropbox or similar and post the link here.

[Quoted post removed by Forum Team]

Where is the Landowner's contract?

1505grandad

About time they altered their template to reflect that the CoP since 2020 has section 19 for the signs  -  not 18.

Umkomaas

Many thanks, I assume the contract is adequately redacted?

Totally redacted to the point of invisibility!

Fruitcake

I can't see the landowner contract in that link.

The site plan doesn't have a key so apart from a tiny tag saying Entrance/Exit (not Entrance Sign), there is nothing to say what the other "blobs" mean, or that they refer to other signs.

Two of the signs are stock images held on a computer, not a sign from the actual site. There is no proof that it is a true representation of the actual signs at the site.

The images of signs are over a year old. There is no proof they are still there.

There are no images of the car parked in the car park, nor any indication where the signs were at the material time in relation to where the car was allegedly parked.

ANPR systems do not record parking time, only time on site, and only if the ANPR system captured every image of the car entering and leaving. There is no proof that the car did not leave and return such that the alleged time on site was actually two separate visits.

The other images of signs are unreadable, the amount of the charge is in tiny font and unreadable, so the signs are incapable of forming a contract with a driver. This is a breach of the BPA CoP, Section 19.3.

The operator has referred to section 18 of the BPA CoP which does not mention signage.

B789

The PCN is not PoFA compliant even if they do mention it. They have not adhered to the requirements of the Act. Just mentioning the Act without reference to which part of the schedule is the first breach. Are they referring to condition #7, #8 or #9?

If, after a period of 28 days (beginning on the day after this Parking Charge is given), the amount requested in this Parking Charge has not been paid in full (or we have not been informed of the driver's name and current address), you, the registered keeper, will, subject to the conditions of, and under the terms of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, be liable to pay the unpaid Parking Charge. If no payment or representation is received within 28 days the outstanding debt will be forwarded to a debt recovery agency, at which point additional charges will apply in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking.

Now compare the above with what the Act says must be specified:
Schedule 4. 2.

The creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invites the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges. If the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass this notice on to the driver.
If, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which this notice is given the amount of the unpaid parking charge has not been paid in full, and the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 paragraph 9 (2) have been met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.

They have not worded the PoFA  reference correctly. The Parking Charge is:

(2) The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles (when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).

(3) The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles (when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).

(a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or

(b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which—
(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land.

You have seen the state of their signs. How "adequate" is the notice of £100? Is it obvious and clear?

So, we don't know which paragraph of Schedule 4 UKPC is applying. Is it para 8 or 9?

They can't then go on and say:

"If no payment or representation is received within 28 days the outstanding debt will be forwarded to a debt recovery agency, at which point additional charges will apply in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking."

This sentence alone negates any ability to use PoFA because it immediately breaches 
PoFA 2012 para 4 (5):

(5) The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper by virtue of the right conferred by this paragraph is the amount specified in the notice to keeper under paragraph 8(2)(c) or (d) or, as the case may be, 9(2)(d) (less any payments towards the unpaid parking charges which are received after the time so specified).

The "maximum" sum is £100 as stated on the PCN and the signs.

I could go on but you should get the drift by now that their PCN is not PoFA compliant for many reasons and therefore they cannot transfer liability to the RK with their pathetic paragraph as stated on their piece of paper.

goonergaz70

Thanks for the input so far, unfortunately I can't change my claim so I can't start saying I left the car park and returned later...anyway here are the documents including the contract;

 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uix9j5qp9dmcblo/AAARTwKjC5p2umC-hGHwt3EIa?dl=0

B789

goonergaz70 said:

Thanks for the input so far, unfortunately I can't change my claim so I can't start saying I left the car park and returned later...anyway here are the documents including the contract;

 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uix9j5qp9dmcblo/AAARTwKjC5p2umC-hGHwt3EIa?dl=0

What claim are you making? It is the PPC making the claim. Also, you are still ignoring all requests to show the redacted contract you said you had.