The Great Debate. EV's will cost less than petrol cars over 5 years.

Martyn1981

Jenni_D said:

michaels said:

Our cars charge either in the garage on the tethered v2h charger 

You mean a Type 2 charge cable ... V2H means Vehicle To Home (a way of powering your house from your car).  

Yep, he's got V2H, and using it to balance RE. Great.

I tried to join a V2G trial back in early 2020, but my DNO said no. 

Suggestions were that at the end of the trial, they will let you buy the kit for 1p, or £1, allowing V2H.  

NBLondon

Herzlos said:

Filling up at petrol stations is barbaric - you've got to queue, possible for quite a while if the person in front is doing a shop, often need to go out of your way to do it, it's not that wind or waterproof, you need to stand in an oily puddle the whole time, people have touched everything after touching god knows what, then you need to use a card machine or go inside.

Rather like using a public EV charger then?   Except you have no easy way to estimate how long the wait is going to be if the previous person has plugged in and gone to the gym for the next hour; or has parked up and not plugged in.   

Cloudane

JKenH said:

ididgetwhereiamtoday said:

Anyone on the fence about going EV really needs to have a test drive. They are fantastic to drive. Even your cheapest and oldest EVs are like driving an older luxurious big engined V6 auto petrol car.

Yes, that was my impression. I enjoyed driving my Leaf so much I got rid of my Golf and Mercedes. I wasn’t ever going to have an ICE car again. Almost 3 years on I am back in a Golf - the Leaf has gone. I certainly miss it in traffic but you have to live with cars and public charging the Leaf killed the EV dream for me. 

I drove my daughter and family from Lincolnshire to Manchester airport last night in the Golf and the whole journey I was thinking just how much more relaxing it was not having to plan charging stops and cope with broken and occupied chargers. The Golf probably saved me a couple of hours and I was able to get back in time to sit down and enjoy a relaxing bite to eat and a a bit of TV with my wife rather than go straight to bed. I put a value on that; others might not.

The financial arguments are moot. 

Whether an EV is a better car for you all depends on your personal circumstances and lifestyle. 

I'm starting to feel the same way.  Got a used Zoe just under 5 years ago, it was very well timed, £7k for a 2.5 year old EV (battery lease, but it all breaks even by the time fuel and tax are taken into account) and I loved it and vowed never to return to ICE.

Now I'm not sure.  I'm doing more and more of the driving for the household (retired parents, their old diesel is about done-for and they don't seem to have much appetite for buying another car as they approach their 70s) which means I'm exposed to the public charging nightmare more.  Admittedly if I had a longer range EV with CCS I'd have more charging options and less stress but it's still only partly masking the issue and I'd also be looking at ~£20k.  I don't have that kind of money and have yet to see maths that favour it over spending probably £6-7k on a reasonable used petrol car for the low mileage I do.

Yes I only do low mileage and there's the argument that keeping the EV is ideal as 99% of the time charging at home is sufficient but the problem with the other 1% is it's an extremely stressful nightmare.  

I've grown past the phase of "ooh isn't it an adventure, planning charge stops and dealing with quirks is something to look back on later in life and laugh about".  It's now more like "I'm flaming sick of this".   Yesterday was Hell.. what was a 2 hour journey in a petrol car took 5 hours in the Zoe.  I'm not exaggerating.  A combination of queues, slow charging posts ("22kW" AC seems a common target for throttling down to ~10kW for load management especially on Gridserve, which turns my 40 minute 20-80% charge into an 80+ minute charge), standing around for 5-10 minutes in the rain registering for yet another new network's app so I can start a charge, rolling up to broken chargers etc all added up and that's how long it took.  Both ways.  Yeah it's not often we need to do a longer trip but it's more often than before and each time probably takes a year off my life through stress alone.  Is going through this abject misery really worth it even if it's only a handful of times per year?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  I miss being able to just get in the car and drive 100, 200 miles with the only inconvenience being a 5 minute wait while the guy in front at the petrol pump buys a sandwich.  I spent all of yesterday thinking "life is too short for this".

Like you say, it's about what you place value on.  Whilst it's not that often, I'm placing more and more value on time and sanity - 4 hours out of the day having a pleasant drive vs. 10 hours out of the day limping along 40 miles at a time dealing with queues, slow chargers, broken chargers and (cr)apps?  That is very "expensive" as far as time and sanity go.

It's not like the charge stops are even pleasant.  Usually it's uncovered and unlit so you're fumbling around in the pouring rain and the dark feeling all the more miserable.  There are also those who feel vulnerable having to mess around in the dark on their own at the back end of a car park somewhere.

Add in the government disincentive of introducing the full tax rate to EVs and soaring electricity costs and it's really not looking favourable at the moment.

DrEskimo

Cloudane said:

JKenH said:

ididgetwhereiamtoday said:

Anyone on the fence about going EV really needs to have a test drive. They are fantastic to drive. Even your cheapest and oldest EVs are like driving an older luxurious big engined V6 auto petrol car.

Yes, that was my impression. I enjoyed driving my Leaf so much I got rid of my Golf and Mercedes. I wasn’t ever going to have an ICE car again. Almost 3 years on I am back in a Golf - the Leaf has gone. I certainly miss it in traffic but you have to live with cars and public charging the Leaf killed the EV dream for me. 

I drove my daughter and family from Lincolnshire to Manchester airport last night in the Golf and the whole journey I was thinking just how much more relaxing it was not having to plan charging stops and cope with broken and occupied chargers. The Golf probably saved me a couple of hours and I was able to get back in time to sit down and enjoy a relaxing bite to eat and a a bit of TV with my wife rather than go straight to bed. I put a value on that; others might not.

The financial arguments are moot. 

Whether an EV is a better car for you all depends on your personal circumstances and lifestyle. 

I'm starting to feel the same way.  Got a used Zoe just under 5 years ago, it was very well timed, £7k for a 2.5 year old EV (battery lease, but it all breaks even by the time fuel and tax are taken into account) and I loved it and vowed never to return to ICE.

Now I'm not sure.  I'm doing more and more of the driving for the household (retired parents, their old diesel is about done-for and they don't seem to have much appetite for buying another car as they approach their 70s) which means I'm exposed to the public charging nightmare more.  Admittedly if I had a longer range EV with CCS I'd have more charging options and less stress but it's still only partly masking the issue and I'd also be looking at ~£20k.  I don't have that kind of money and have yet to see maths that favour it over spending probably £6-7k on a reasonable used petrol car for the low mileage I do.

Yes I only do low mileage and there's the argument that keeping the EV is ideal as 99% of the time charging at home is sufficient but the problem with the other 1% is it's an extremely stressful nightmare.  

I've grown past the phase of "ooh isn't it an adventure, planning charge stops and dealing with quirks is something to look back on later in life and laugh about".  It's now more like "I'm flaming sick of this".   Yesterday was Hell.. what was a 2 hour journey in a petrol car took 5 hours in the Zoe.  I'm not exaggerating.  A combination of queues, slow charging posts ("22kW" AC seems a common target for throttling down to ~10kW for load management especially on Gridserve, which turns my 40 minute 20-80% charge into an 80+ minute charge), standing around for 5-10 minutes in the rain registering for yet another new network's app so I can start a charge, rolling up to broken chargers etc all added up and that's how long it took.  Both ways.  Yeah it's not often we need to do a longer trip but it's more often than before and each time probably takes a year off my life through stress alone.  Is going through this abject misery really worth it even if it's only a handful of times per year?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  I miss being able to just get in the car and drive 100, 200 miles with the only inconvenience being a 5 minute wait while the guy in front at the petrol pump buys a sandwich.  I spent all of yesterday thinking "life is too short for this".

Like you say, it's about what you place value on.  Whilst it's not that often, I'm placing more and more value on time and sanity - 4 hours out of the day having a pleasant drive vs. 10 hours out of the day limping along 40 miles at a time dealing with queues, slow chargers, broken chargers and (cr)apps?  That is very "expensive" as far as time and sanity go.

It's not like the charge stops are even pleasant.  Usually it's uncovered and unlit so you're fumbling around in the pouring rain and the dark feeling all the more miserable.  There are also those who feel vulnerable having to mess around in the dark on their own at the back end of a car park somewhere.

Add in the government disincentive of introducing the full tax rate to EVs and soaring electricity costs and it's really not looking favourable at the moment.

Is that the 20kWh Zoe? If so I completely agree, that would be nigh on unbearable to do long journeys in...the battery and charging speed simply aren't good enough.

I can just about get by in my 41kWh Zoe. I did a 300mile journey in it and was able to plan charging well enough that it matched with lunch spots and wasn't much hassle at all relative to an ICE (even got some charges for free). But I accept I may have been lucky/it's changed not EVs have ramped up considerably (this was in 2021).

What does change things is recently having regular use of a Tesla (2016 Model S) with their infrastructure. Even that is starting to get stretched now, but I have a trip to Scotland planned in a couple of weeks, and with the train strikes have decided to drive from Bucks to just above Edinburgh. I have very few reservations about this, although will be sure to report back if it turns into a nightmare!

I think all in, it's getting harder to recommend EVs with the charging infrastructure. I guess the positive news is that the battery/charging technology is moving fast to where now a 20kWh battery with 22kW AC charging only is seen as very archaic, and that with the right infrastructure in place, it can work.

The price is certainly a massive hurdle though, and a barrier to entry for most. 

Herzlos

NBLondon said:

Herzlos said:

Filling up at petrol stations is barbaric - you've got to queue, possible for quite a while if the person in front is doing a shop, often need to go out of your way to do it, it's not that wind or waterproof, you need to stand in an oily puddle the whole time, people have touched everything after touching god knows what, then you need to use a card machine or go inside.

Rather like using a public EV charger then?   Except you have no easy way to estimate how long the wait is going to be if the previous person has plugged in and gone to the gym for the next hour; or has parked up and not plugged in.   

Pretty much, but most EV drivers don't use public chargers that much, and there are apps to give you an indication of what's available. Of course, if you arrive at a public charger to find they are all in use with no-one nearby then you're completely stuffed.

Cloudane

Is that the 20kWh Zoe? If so I completely agree, that would be nigh on unbearable to do long journeys in...the battery and charging speed simply aren't good enough.

It is, yeah. When I first got it and was watching the pioneers on Youtube and their little adventures doing hundreds of miles in one it was quite exciting but that early sort of "pioneering adventure spirit" has faded now and I'm seeing the hassle for what it is.  Meanwhile said YouTubers made a fortune off their videos and were able to move on to much better EVs   Missed a trick there...

I can definitely see that it'd be a bit less stressful with 41kWh and I've toyed with the idea of upgrading to one but am not so sure it'd be a big enough upgrade at this point since it's still AC22 and still has the issues (in my experience) of purported 22kW units being throttled to slower speeds and disappearing from those convenient rapid charging sites in general.

But yeah it's a different era now.  The good news is my Zoe hasn't depreciated much if at all so it could do fairly well in a part exchange I suppose, but it's hard to stomach the idea of paying £14-15k for a 7 year old hatchback, which I think is about where the ZE40 is sitting at the moment (and has done for some time).  They're just so relatively expensive for those of us who have the "pay £7k or so once every 5-10 years" kind of system going, and the thought of spending potentially nothing to switch to a pretty reasonable petrol car and no longer be paying a battery lease is becoming increasingly tempting.

(There is, of course, the environmental argument which in part drove me to EVs to begin with.  But it's still better to put a used petrol car to low mileage use than to scrap it as far as I know, and I'm turning more to the thought of "that's a job for the rich and not something I have a high enough income to be expected to worry about")

daveyjp

Cloudane said:

JKenH said:

ididgetwhereiamtoday said:

Anyone on the fence about going EV really needs to have a test drive. They are fantastic to drive. Even your cheapest and oldest EVs are like driving an older luxurious big engined V6 auto petrol car.

Yes, that was my impression. I enjoyed driving my Leaf so much I got rid of my Golf and Mercedes. I wasn’t ever going to have an ICE car again. Almost 3 years on I am back in a Golf - the Leaf has gone. I certainly miss it in traffic but you have to live with cars and public charging the Leaf killed the EV dream for me. 

I drove my daughter and family from Lincolnshire to Manchester airport last night in the Golf and the whole journey I was thinking just how much more relaxing it was not having to plan charging stops and cope with broken and occupied chargers. The Golf probably saved me a couple of hours and I was able to get back in time to sit down and enjoy a relaxing bite to eat and a a bit of TV with my wife rather than go straight to bed. I put a value on that; others might not.

The financial arguments are moot. 

Whether an EV is a better car for you all depends on your personal circumstances and lifestyle. 

I'm starting to feel the same way.  Got a used Zoe just under 5 years ago, it was very well timed, £7k for a 2.5 year old EV (battery lease, but it all breaks even by the time fuel and tax are taken into account) and I loved it and vowed never to return to ICE.

Now I'm not sure.  I'm doing more and more of the driving for the household (retired parents, their old diesel is about done-for and they don't seem to have much appetite for buying another car as they approach their 70s) which means I'm exposed to the public charging nightmare more.  Admittedly if I had a longer range EV with CCS I'd have more charging options and less stress but it's still only partly masking the issue and I'd also be looking at ~£20k.  I don't have that kind of money and have yet to see maths that favour it over spending probably £6-7k on a reasonable used petrol car for the low mileage I do.

Yes I only do low mileage and there's the argument that keeping the EV is ideal as 99% of the time charging at home is sufficient but the problem with the other 1% is it's an extremely stressful nightmare.  

I've grown past the phase of "ooh isn't it an adventure, planning charge stops and dealing with quirks is something to look back on later in life and laugh about".  It's now more like "I'm flaming sick of this".   Yesterday was Hell.. what was a 2 hour journey in a petrol car took 5 hours in the Zoe.  I'm not exaggerating.  A combination of queues, slow charging posts ("22kW" AC seems a common target for throttling down to ~10kW for load management especially on Gridserve, which turns my 40 minute 20-80% charge into an 80+ minute charge), standing around for 5-10 minutes in the rain registering for yet another new network's app so I can start a charge, rolling up to broken chargers etc all added up and that's how long it took.  Both ways.  Yeah it's not often we need to do a longer trip but it's more often than before and each time probably takes a year off my life through stress alone.  Is going through this abject misery really worth it even if it's only a handful of times per year?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  I miss being able to just get in the car and drive 100, 200 miles with the only inconvenience being a 5 minute wait while the guy in front at the petrol pump buys a sandwich.  I spent all of yesterday thinking "life is too short for this".

Like you say, it's about what you place value on.  Whilst it's not that often, I'm placing more and more value on time and sanity - 4 hours out of the day having a pleasant drive vs. 10 hours out of the day limping along 40 miles at a time dealing with queues, slow chargers, broken chargers and (cr)apps?  That is very "expensive" as far as time and sanity go.

It's not like the charge stops are even pleasant.  Usually it's uncovered and unlit so you're fumbling around in the pouring rain and the dark feeling all the more miserable.  There are also those who feel vulnerable having to mess around in the dark on their own at the back end of a car park somewhere.

Add in the government disincentive of introducing the full tax rate to EVs and soaring electricity costs and it's really not looking favourable at the moment.

I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.  You've had good use, but your circumstances have now changed so that particular EV may no longer be suitable.

NBLondon

Herzlos said:

Pretty much, but most EV drivers don't use public chargers that much, 

And that's the sticking point isn't it?   If you have access to home-charging or easy access at places you visit regularly (work, gym, supermarket etc.) then EV is a great deal for some people.  If you have to rely on the current public infrastructure then convenience becomes much more significant. 

There might still be long-term savings to be had - but there's an initial outlay to be factored in.  It may depend on where you are in the country but in major cities there's a correlation between can/can't afford a new EV and can/can't afford a house with a driveway.

Petriix

NBLondon said:

Herzlos said:

Pretty much, but most EV drivers don't use public chargers that much, 

And that's the sticking point isn't it?   If you have access to home-charging or easy access at places you visit regularly (work, gym, supermarket etc.) then EV is a great deal for some people.  If you have to rely on the current public infrastructure then convenience becomes much more significant. 

There might still be long-term savings to be had - but there's an initial outlay to be factored in.  It may depend on where you are in the country but in major cities there's a correlation between can/can't afford a new EV and can/can't afford a house with a driveway.

Absolutely this. There are lots of different circumstances where EVs would be challenging and/or not financially viable. There are also many situations where an EV would be massively cheaper and more convenient than an ICE.

Many of the discussion points here in this thread come from a paradigm of assumptions that fall into one side or other of such circumstances. As ever, when weighing up the switch to an EV, it's crucial to understand your own unique requirements. 

I certainly wouldn't recommend an EV to anyone who doesn't have reliable access to affordable charging. And I absolutely wouldn't suggest undertaking a long journey in a short range EV.

Personally I enjoy the game so I'm happy to adapt to extended journey times when doing longer trips in my medium range MG5. I appreciate that's not for everyone. I wouldn't be setting off without knowing exactly where my plan A, B and C charging options are. Through experience I've become pretty good at predicting which chargers will be reliable, available and affordable. 

Herzlos

EV's definitely don't suit everyone (yet), especially as a single car household. There may even be a small edge case of people for whom EV will never become suitable.

But they are suiting more people over time as the technology and infrastructure improves. At least no-one is going to be forced to give up their ICE vehicles until at least 2050 at which point most remaining ICE vehicles will be aging off the market.