Van Manufactured with Wrong Engine; Insurance Void?

CoastingHatbox

Grey_Critic said:

Vehicle Data is supplied by the manufacturer IF there is a discrepancy then only the manufacturer can actually resolve the problem. As I said earlier I have come across problems in the past where data and vehicle do not agree but on the basis that there is no evidence that the engine has been changed you need to go back to Peugeot - they will be able to answer the question.

The data does agree - the physical vehicle matches the data in respect to VIN number, engine serial number and I have a key piece of evidence showing that is how the vehicle was before it was sold to it's first owner.

I bought and paid for a standard van.

I have a non-standard van.

That should not be my problem. It's someone elses problem. Whether it be the suppying dealer or manufacturer, the creditor can sort that out.

BTW: I used to deal with PSA and then Stellantis on a regular basis, I wrote software to map titre codes to CAP and Glasses vehicle data and I supported processes that imported their derivative information. I am unlikely to obtain any more information from them than I already have, and I will be waiting weeks for an answer if I get one at all.

As it stands, I don't need any more evidence of the issue at this stage.

CoastingHatbox

chrisw said:

You seem to be sure you've cracked it, have a good idea of your next move and are clear about the outcome you are seeking.

It seems to be going round in circles and I don't think any further suggestions will make much difference, so it remains to wish you good luck and I hope you get the outcome you want. Please keep us updated.

Thank you.

Money_Grabber13579

I think you mentioned that at some point in the past, the van was imported into the UK. Any chance this was a standard configuration for the jurisdiction it was imported from, but not one which was ever produced for the UK market?

Car_54

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I think you mentioned that at some point in the past, the van was imported into the UK. Any chance this was a standard configuration for the jurisdiction it was imported from, but not one which was ever produced for the UK market?

All Peugeot vehicles are imported!

CoastingHatbox

Money_Grabber13579 said:

I think you mentioned that at some point in the past, the van was imported into the UK. Any chance this was a standard configuration for the jurisdiction it was imported from, but not one which was ever produced for the UK market?

Officially imported; as in many vehicles are not manufactured in the UK and imported by the manufacturer.

It is a possibility the van was intended for another market, but the data sheet indescrepancy suggests that perhaps isn't the issue. And even if it is, it doesn't reall matter.

jimjames

CoastingHatbox said:

Grey_Critic said:

Question - Who manufactured the vehicle?

Answer - Peugeot.

They are the only people who can give you the definitve answer.  With respect you might think you know but if it went to law then the only answer that would be accepted is from Peugeot.

Even if the wrong engine was fitted there will be documentary evidence - who has that? Peugeot and no they do not get rid of the paperwork after a couple of years.

I personally came across problems with vehicles that required manufacturers documentation be traced to resolve probelms.

I've managed to obtain the original build specification of the van - this is what Peugeot's own computer system says it is.

VIN: VF37BBHW6HJ****
Engine serial number: 10 JBHB ****

Engine: DV6FE FAP DIESEL

Payload: 600 KG PAYLOAD

And supplementary information required to intepret:

BHW (from VIN) == DV6FE

BHB (from Engine serial number) == DV6FD

DV6FE == BlueHDi 75

DV6FD == BlueHDi 100

One of the labels from van:

What that says to me, was that this van was intended to be built with a DV6FE but instead received the DV6FD.

Maybe I've missed it but is it possible the wrong serial number is on the engine? Have you checked its output? VW for example do a 1.9 litre engine that ranges from 90 to 150 bhp with very few cosmetic differences from the outside to distinguish them.

Herzlos

Right, so you've got evidence that the van was built with the wrong engine (the manifest paperwork), but Peugeot won't do anything about that until they've had a look. So the quickest solution is to book it in with them to look.

Then unless they offer something, it looks like your options are:

1. Pay the increased insurance and enjoy the extra performance.

2. Modify the van back to standard. It could just be a remap but that's ~£400.
3. Sell the van, declaring the discrepancy, then buy something else. It's probably worth more than you paid for it, but then so is any replacement you buy.

Grey_Critic

Herzlos said:

Right, so you've got evidence that the van was built with the wrong engine (the manifest paperwork), but Peugeot won't do anything about that until they've had a look. So the quickest solution is to book it in with them to look.

I have been saying that from the very start.

It is possible that the OP is correct but it was not him that built the vehicle - it was Peugeot - only their internal documentation can answer the question.

An Wxample of how things go wrong

Years ago Iveco produced a Crown Wheel & Pinion. After casting they were case hardened then machined. When fitted to vehicles they began to whine - so loud in some cases you could be forgiven for thinking that it was a siren.

Of course the problem was they machined them AFTER case hardening. So they changed things and machined first.

That was OK until they moved production to another country (together with unused stock) and the problem came back. Turned out that the **old production instructions* had been sent.

They then moved production again and sent the wrong paperwork.and of course the same problem.

The point I am making is that production codes etched into them were the only way to actually identify good and bad stock. That documentation was only held by Iveco. It cost millions to rectify.

Herzlos

And there's always the possibility that it does actually have the intended 75bhp engine in it, with the wrong code for whatever reason. Did you get the ODB tool to check what the ECU thinks it is?

CoastingHatbox

I'm not sure how many times I need to spell this out.

I didn't buy the van from Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis. I have no relationship with Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis. I have no contract with Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis.

Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis have no obligation to even speak to me.

I spoke to the original supplying dealer and they were pretty useless. Quite frankly, the liklehood of gleaning any further useful information from them, versus the round trip time to visit them, the fuel cost and potential cost of diagnostic time - it's not worth it. I'm not expecting them to give up their mechanics time for free and neither are they obliged too provide it for free because, once again, I have no contract with them.

Add to that, I've past experience working with PSA and Stellantis - diagnosing and resolving problems in failed imports of vehicle data - I know what they are like to deal with and I don't particularly want to go down that road.

And it doesn't actually matter because...

It is up to the supplier and creditor I entered into the contract with when I bought the van to set this straight. It is their problem. They can make it Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis's problem if they wish. That is the way the law works and there is no reason for me to approach it from any other angle. The creditor is going to carry more weight because the creditor has the burden of complying Consumer Credit Act (1974) as well as the other legislation that applies here, namely the Consumer Rights Act (2015) and The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (2008). The creditor is regulated by the FCA. ( - So is the dealer, but the dealer probably cares less about that as they are not such a big target for the FCA in terms of compliance.)

Irrespective of whether it is the wrong engine, or the wrong label on the engine, doubt is cast of what engine is in the van. That makes insuring the van pain in the !!!!!!. And again, not that it matters, the engines are manufactured and labelled in one of two different factories and then transported to another factory for assembly into a vehicle. If the engine/sub-assembly arrived in the factory where the van was assembled with the wrong label, it should not have gone into the van. That same engine, by-the-way, would have been bench tested before it was shipped, so it's very unlikely it's power output when new did not match the label.

This should not be my problem. And although Peugeot/PSA by the looks of things, made the mistake, once again, for emphasis, my contract is not with them. If either the creditor or the supplier want to take it up with Peugeot/PSA/Stellantis, they can do. I don't need too.

I'm not sure how many different ways I need to say the same thing. Yes it was Peugeot/PSAs mistake but at this stage is not their responsibility. It is the supplier and creditor's responsibility. All of this chatter around 'has the engine been swapped' and taking it back to Peugeot is actually irrelevant to the situation. The simple facts is that either the engine has the wrong number or the van has the wrong engine. It doesn't really matter - that's enough to cause difficulties insuring the van and thus I am suffering financial loss. All I need to do is pursue the other parties I entered into the contract with. That's it. Simple.

I have all the evidence I could ever need of the discrepency in order to make my complaint. The burden of proof actually lies with them. I don't need to try any harder or do any more.

Finally, I did try and read VIN/Engine code with my diagnostic tool but it was not able to retrieve that information. There is a tool for £180 that should be able to do it, but a lost interest when I read it required a computer running a 32-bit version of Windows.

Unless you have a degree in consumer or contract law, I suggest this thread is best left at that. No further comments are required.

To those that have been helpful/constructive, thank you.