Van Manufactured with Wrong Engine; Insurance Void?

Grey_Critic

The only people who can give the definative answer is Peugeot everything else is conjecture. 

CoastingHatbox

Grey_Critic said:

The only people who can give the definative answer is Peugeot everything else is conjecture. 

Not really. The Peugeot main dealer didn't know any more than I did, after checking their own manufacturer system which is why they wanted to see the van. Externally the visible portion of the engine is the same. I could strip the anicilliaries off the top of the engine block and remove the shrouding from the turbo to see which turbo (Mitsubishi or Garrett) is strapped to the engine, given that both blocks are otherwise identical.

Alternatively, I could get the appropiate diagnostic device and plug it into the OBD 2 port.

Or I could pay Peugeot to do either of the above in order to fully verify which engine is in the van.

But I really don't need to anything more to prove there is a discrepancy. If I make the complaint, in reality it is down to the finance company and/or supplier to prove there isn't a discrepancy.

The engines are manufactured in Daghenam, Chennai and Trémery and labelled before shipping and assembly into a vehicle. The vans are manufactured in Portugal and Spain. That engine with that label should not have been assembled into that van, irrespective of whether it had the correct/incorrect label. However, I suspect it has not happened by accident - it is probably the result of a shortage of the correct type of engine at the time of manufacture.

If I wrote to Stellantis, am I really likely to get an answer? On all balance of probability, no as at the point in time they have no interest in the vehicle and they don't care. If the finance company want to pursue, they are probably more likely to get an answer than I am.

Flight3287462

How do you know the engine wasn't replaced at some point?

Herzlos

Flight3287462 said:

How do you know the engine wasn't replaced at some point?

The engine being replaced seems to be the most likely culprit.

I can see British car manufacturers from the 70's potentially managing to put the wrong engine in a car and no-one notice, but a modern car plant will have much better inventory, manufacturing and validation procedures so it should be nearly impossible.

CoastingHatbox

Flight3287462 said:

How do you know the engine wasn't replaced at some point?

Because the original WayBill used when the vehicle was officially imported into the UK has the same VIN and engine numbers.
The only way the van had it's engine replaced was if it was done so by PSA before the van reached the UK and before it was sold to its first owner.

Herzlos

CoastingHatbox said:

But I really don't need to anything more to prove there is a discrepancy. If I make the complaint, in reality it is down to the finance company and/or supplier to prove there isn't a discrepancy.

Why do you think the finance company would be liable? They don't have a claim to the van and weren't part of the purchase.

Your claims would be with Peugeot (if they built the van wrong) or the supplier (if there was an undeclared engine swap).

Is there anything in the service history (on paper or with Peugeot) that'd indicate there were any engine problems? If you bought it at 2 years old presumably someone would have tried a warranty claim on a blown engine unless they did something really stupid. 

SergeantBaker

CoastingHatbox said:

Flight3287462 said:

How do you know the engine wasn't replaced at some point?

Because the original WayBill used when the vehicle was officially imported into the UK has the same VIN and engine numbers.
The only way the van had its  engine replaced was if it was done so by PSA before the van reached the UK and before it was sold to its first owner.

I don’t know if you’ve already said but have you physically checked the engine number?

CoastingHatbox

Herzlos said:

CoastingHatbox said:

But I really don't need to anything more to prove there is a discrepancy. If I make the complaint, in reality it is down to the finance company and/or supplier to prove there isn't a discrepancy.

Why do you think the finance company would be liable? They don't have a claim to the van and weren't part of the purchase.

Your claims would be with Peugeot (if they built the van wrong) or the supplier (if there was an undeclared engine swap).

Is there anything in the service history (on paper or with Peugeot) that'd indicate there were any engine problems? If you bought it at 2 years old presumably someone would have tried a warranty claim on a blown engine unless they did something really stupid. 

I acquired the vehicle on a hire-purchase agreement (restricted-use debtor-creditor arrangement) via the finance company (creditor). Sadly for them, they are jointly liable for any claim made in respect of the Consumer Rights Act (2015) thanks to section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act (1974). The Consumer Credit Act gives no time limit on claims and the statute of limitations in England is 6 years.

Working through the creditor is the most likely successful approach to get financial mitigation, without engaging trading standards or a solicitor. The creditor if they wish, can seek reimbursement from PSA (now Stellantis).

As stated above, the vehicle has the same engine number as it did when it was officially imported into the UK - so if the engine has been changed, then the identifying marks on the engine have also been changed ... this is very unlikely.

Herzlos said:

I can see British car manufacturers from the 70's potentially managing to put the wrong engine in a car and no-one notice, but a modern car plant will have much better inventory, manufacturing and validation procedures so it should be nearly impossible.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Most vehicle manufacturers are very good at managing inventory as they use just-in-time manufacture for many of the components rather than filling parts bins. Also why I was initially sceptical about my own findings.

I've got on OBD II reader which I'll plug into the van today to see if it can read off the engine number. That aside, I have the letter drafted with accompanying evidence (copies of V5C, WayBill, photographs of VIN and engine numbers from the vehicle and some evidence explaining how PSA encode those numbers).

Trading Standards have given me a case number are willing to act if I don't get anywhere with the finance company myself.

Grey_Critic

Question - Who manufactured the vehicle?

Answer - Peugeot.

They are the only people who can give you the definitve answer.  With respect you might think you know but if it went to law then the only answer that would be accepted is from Peugeot.

Even if the wrong engine was fitted there will be documentary evidence - who has that? Peugeot and no they do not get rid of the paperwork after a couple of years.

I personally came across problems with vehicles that required manufacturers documentation be traced to resolve probelms.

Grumpy_chap

CoastingHatbox said:

Yes. It literally boils down to the fact they don't have a matching vehicle in their list (N.B. the vehicle is not a recognised derivative)

Herzlos said:

I can see British car manufacturers from the 70's potentially managing to put the wrong engine in a car and no-one notice, but a modern car plant will have much better inventory, manufacturing and validation procedures so it should be nearly impossible.

So, the OP has a 5 yo (2017) van with an engine / gearbox / payload combination that does not match the insurance database and the engine does not match the V5.  Engine fitted is 100 bhp, V5 and insurance database says 75 bhp.  Gearbox and payload would match the 75 bhp engine.

Agree with Herzlos that a vehicle built to incorrect engine spec is highly unlikely.

The OP has apparently ruled out the engine being exchanged at some point.

Is it possible that the vehicle has been constructed to a standard configuration, but standard for either a different geographical region or a different time period (model year)?

Can the OP verify the build date for the van?  There are instances where unsold new vehicles are stored for an extended period in a compound somewhere and then get registered as brand new, but the vehicle has the build spec of the previous year applicable when the vehicle was actually built.  Some tales on the internet suggest that this can sometimes be vehicles that were manufactured a couple of years previously - I do not know how reliable such internet reports are.  Certainly, a 2016 specification van being registered in 2017 seems entirely plausible.