Van Manufactured with Wrong Engine; Insurance Void?

Flight3287462

Are these engines identical apart from the chip? (I'm not sure if that is possible, that may be a silly question)

Nobbie1967

Have you approached the supplying dealer with a view to exchanging your current van for one of a similar age/mileage with the right engine? Would seem to be the most straightforward solution and pretty much cost neutral for the dealer as they would buy a similar van from trade and sell your old one back into trade.

The problem with claiming compensation is in quantifying the loss and I suspect there would be many legal technicalities to be explored on that one, not least how you value a van differently because it has a more powerful engine. It’s not clear that it would make it less valuable as a more powerful van probably attracts a premium to a trade buyer and trade insurance may be less picky over what to them looks like a replacement engine.

In the current crazy market, I wonder whether the van is worth much the same or more now than when you bought it 3 years ago given the low mileage you do. If that’s the case, the dealer could maybe offer to cancel the deal back to inception rather than offer compensation?

CoastingHatbox

Grey_Critic said:

Question - Who manufactured the vehicle?

Answer - Peugeot.

They are the only people who can give you the definitve answer.  With respect you might think you know but if it went to law then the only answer that would be accepted is from Peugeot.

Even if the wrong engine was fitted there will be documentary evidence - who has that? Peugeot and no they do not get rid of the paperwork after a couple of years.

I personally came across problems with vehicles that required manufacturers documentation be traced to resolve probelms.

I've managed to obtain the original build specification of the van - this is what Peugeot's own computer system says it is.

VIN: VF37BBHW6HJ****
Engine serial number: 10 JBHB ****

Engine: DV6FE FAP DIESEL

Payload: 600 KG PAYLOAD

And supplementary information required to intepret:

BHW (from VIN) == DV6FE

BHB (from Engine serial number) == DV6FD

DV6FE == BlueHDi 75

DV6FD == BlueHDi 100

One of the labels from van:

What that says to me, was that this van was intended to be built with a DV6FE but instead received the DV6FD.

CoastingHatbox

Nobbie1967 said:

Have you approached the supplying dealer with a view to exchanging your current van for one of a similar age/mileage with the right engine? Would seem to be the most straightforward solution and pretty much cost neutral for the dealer as they would buy a similar van from trade and sell your old one back into trade.

The problem with claiming compensation is in quantifying the loss and I suspect there would be many legal technicalities to be explored on that one, not least how you value a van differently because it has a more powerful engine. It’s not clear that it would make it less valuable as a more powerful van probably attracts a premium to a trade buyer and trade insurance may be less picky over what to them looks like a replacement engine.

In the current crazy market, I wonder whether the van is worth much the same or more now than when you bought it 3 years ago given the low mileage you do. If that’s the case, the dealer could maybe offer to cancel the deal back to inception rather than offer compensation?

I queried discrepancy between what was shown on the information sheet for the van and what I was told it was when I came to insure it, just after agreeing the sale and lets just say they were less then helpful. I've looked at their current stock for a broadly equivalent model with similar mileage - they have nothing of the same age with such low miles on.

The other issue is that van prices have risen incredibly since I bought the van and still remain quite high. A van of similar age/specification/mileage to the one I bought ~3 years ago is ~£7k dearer than mine was.

It's nice to have the more powerful engine but the real cost to me is a doubling in cost of insurance - my renewal would have been for £209. The cheapest I can find insurance now with the modification (standard engine replacement* + up to 30% increased power output**) is £414. I think that's a good basis for estimating my financial loss. As for resale value, it's going to depend on circumstances of any potential buyer.

Not sure what you mean by 'trade insurance'. The van has to go onto a commercial policy, even if it's used as a car. I think if it was insured as part of a fleet, it would not make any material difference, but 5 year old vans are seldom bought by fleet buyers?

Flight3287462 said:

Are these engines identical apart from the chip? (I'm not sure if that is possible, that may be a silly question)

I've been trying to find out about mechanical differences and it's been like pulling hens teeth. All I have determined thus far is that both have the same Turbocharger (actually a Mitsubishi model). There was a 130 BHP derivative that received a variable-vane turbocharger. The absolute irony of all this is that physically, the engine could be identical!

*As in an engine type originally supplied to the type of vehicle, as opposed to a different type, e.g. a 6 cylinder

**Closer to 25% but thats the way they seem to classify modifications

Nobbie1967

CoastingHatbox said:

It's nice to have the more powerful engine but the real cost to me is a doubling in cost of insurance - my renewal would have been for £209. The cheapest I can find insurance now with the modification (standard engine replacement* + up to 30% increased power output**) is £414. I think that's a good basis for estimating my financial loss. As for resale value, it's going to depend on circumstances of any potential buyer.

Not sure what you mean by 'trade insurance'. The van has to go onto a commercial policy, even if it's used as a car. I think if it was insured as part of a fleet, it would not make any material difference, but 5 year old vans are seldom bought by fleet buyers?

The insurance cost will be ongoing and can be mitigated by selling the van. I can’t see how a court could award compensation for this future unknowable loss that depends on so many factors. They would surely look at the difference in value between what you thought you bought and what you actually got, which as you point out will be very difficult to quantify short of selling it privately which you don’t appear willing to do. What sort of sum are you thinking of? They may just give you £500 to go away.

Grumpy_chap

CoastingHatbox said:

I've managed to obtain the original build specification of the van - this is what Peugeot's own computer system says it is.

VIN: VF37BBHW6HJ****
Engine serial number: 10 JBHB ****

Engine: DV6FE FAP DIESEL

Payload: 600 KG PAYLOAD

And supplementary information required to intepret:

BHW (from VIN) == DV6FE

BHB (from Engine serial number) == DV6FD

DV6FE == BlueHDi 75

DV6FD == BlueHDi 100

One of the labels from van:

What that says to me, was that this van was intended to be built with a DV6FE but instead received the DV6FD.

OK, so I am not sure how that helps.  Perhaps I am missing the obvious.

I think you said upthread that the V5 says the van has an "E" engine.
Computer says the van has an "E" engine.
VIN says the van has an "E" engine.
The actual engine is a "D" engine.

How does that establish that the van was intended to be fitted with the "E" engine but instead received the "D" engine?
It establishes that the van currently has the "D" engine, but not that it was fitted at the outset.  The engine could have been changed at any time.

CoastingHatbox

Grumpy_chap said:

CoastingHatbox said:

I've managed to obtain the original build specification of the van - this is what Peugeot's own computer system says it is.

VIN: VF37BBHW6HJ****
Engine serial number: 10 JBHB ****

Engine: DV6FE FAP DIESEL

Payload: 600 KG PAYLOAD

And supplementary information required to intepret:

BHW (from VIN) == DV6FE

BHB (from Engine serial number) == DV6FD

DV6FE == BlueHDi 75

DV6FD == BlueHDi 100

One of the labels from van:

What that says to me, was that this van was intended to be built with a DV6FE but instead received the DV6FD.

OK, so I am not sure how that helps.  Perhaps I am missing the obvious.

I think you said upthread that the V5 says the van has an "E" engine.
Computer says the van has an "E" engine.
VIN says the van has an "E" engine.
The actual engine is a "D" engine.

How does that establish that the van was intended to be fitted with the "E" engine but instead received the "D" engine?
It establishes that the van currently has the "D" engine, but not that it was fitted at the outset.  The engine could have been changed at any time.

You are missing the point.
There are two numbers of concern, VIN and engine number.

VIN says "E"
Engine number says "D"

In the build data, the "Engine" and "Engine serial number" and fields are inconsistent with each other.
"Engine" is "E"

"Engine serial number is "D".

Buildsheet, waybill, V5C and the vehicle all have the same inconsistent engine number - which means vehicle was assembled, officially imported and registered with the "D" engine.

CoastingHatbox

Nobbie1967 said:

CoastingHatbox said:

It's nice to have the more powerful engine but the real cost to me is a doubling in cost of insurance - my renewal would have been for £209. The cheapest I can find insurance now with the modification (standard engine replacement* + up to 30% increased power output**) is £414. I think that's a good basis for estimating my financial loss. As for resale value, it's going to depend on circumstances of any potential buyer.

Not sure what you mean by 'trade insurance'. The van has to go onto a commercial policy, even if it's used as a car. I think if it was insured as part of a fleet, it would not make any material difference, but 5 year old vans are seldom bought by fleet buyers?

The insurance cost will be ongoing and can be mitigated by selling the van. I can’t see how a court could award compensation for this future unknowable loss that depends on so many factors. They would surely look at the difference in value between what you thought you bought and what you actually got, which as you point out will be very difficult to quantify short of selling it privately which you don’t appear willing to do. What sort of sum are you thinking of? They may just give you £500 to go away.

How is it mitigated by selling the van? If I sell it to a private seller I have to disclose, otherwise I am committing an offence. That inevitably means accepting less for an otherwise top condition van which I've purposefully maintained to a high standard in my ownership.

Or I sell it into the trade. The difference between the trade-in and private sale values, adjusted for mileage, is upwards of £2k - They seem heightened by residual values not really reflecting what is happening in the used van market.

Honestly, I think anything upwards of £1k in settlement (the difference in cost for 5 years-worth of insurance at today's prices) could be deemed reasonable and would soften the blow + go straight into the car savings fund.

I searched high and low for a good second-hand van that had no obvious signs of abuse - they aren't that easy to come by. And the van, otherwise, perfectly meets my needs. I bought the van with an intention of looking after it and keeping it for a long time.

Grey_Critic

Vehicle Data is supplied by the manufacturer IF there is a discrepancy then only the manufacturer can actually resolve the problem. As I said earlier I have come across problems in the past where data and vehicle do not agree but on the basis that there is no evidence that the engine has been changed you need to go back to Peugeot - they will be able to answer the question.

chrisw

You seem to be sure you've cracked it, have a good idea of your next move and are clear about the outcome you are seeking.

It seems to be going round in circles and I don't think any further suggestions will make much difference, so it remains to wish you good luck and I hope you get the outcome you want. Please keep us updated.