We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum. This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are - or become - political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.

Octopus Saving Session

Options
12467100

Comments

  • Alnat1
    Alnat1 Posts: 3,394 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    edited 16 November 2022 at 4:15PM
    Options
    The trial was on the 3rd day of pretty much 0 solar for us, Agile didn't have decent cheap slots and the battery was pancaked.

    I was at work yesterday, but hubby appears to have used oven/grill to make his lunch at 1pm (I'm guessing sausage or fish finger butty) then boiled kettle a couple of times and set the dishwasher off. I'd set battery to fill for an hour 2.30-3.30. So, in that 3 hour "in day adjustment" slot we used quite a bit more than usual, just by chance.

    I was expecting very little reward as battery power usually covers our peak time use and had done for 6 of the 10 baseline days, was looking at an average of 0.2kWh. If I do get a decent bit more then I'll let you know.

    Edit. Used 3.26kWh 1pm-4pm. Used 0kWh 5pm-6pm
    Barnsley, South Yorkshire
    Solar PV 5.25kWp SW facing (14 x 375 Longi) Lux 3.6kw hybrid inverter and 4.8kw Pylontech battery storage installed March 22
    Octopus Agile/Fixed Outgoing and Tracker gas
  • Petriix
    Petriix Posts: 2,125 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    Options
    peter3hg said:
    Petriix said:
    Ok, I've found details about the 'In Day Adjustment' but, at first glance, it seems to disregard the entirety of the 10 day period supposedly used for the baseline.

    Here's a link to the document

    The bit I'm struggling to get my head around is that the formula as written: 

    In Day Adjustment = ∑j (Unit Meter Point Metered Volume – Unadjusted Baseline Value)/ 6

    where ∑j represents summation over the six Settlement Periods in the “In Day Reference Window”. The In Day Reference Window is defined as the three-hour period ending at one hour ahead of the first Settlement Period in Settlement Day D. BL01 Step 4 – Calculate Baseline Values Demand Flexibility Service | Procurement Rules For each ‘Domestic’ Unit Meter Point (and each Settlement Period within Settlement Day D), Baseline Value is calculated as:

    Baseline Value = Unadjusted Baseline Value + In Day Adjustment 
    ...no matter what number you use as the Unadjusted Baseline Value, the result will always be the same. It adds it, then it takes it away so it's effectively removed from the result. That means the In Day Adjustment becomes the entire baseline. So the baseline is actually just the 6 half hour windows ending 1 hour before the trial on the same day.

    That's clearly not the intention, but I can't see how you would use that formula to get a different result. Can anyone else figure it out?
    The adjustment is calculated against the relevant settlement periods (half hour blocks) from the previous 10 days (4 days at weekend).
    So if between 1pm and 4pm you used an average of 0.2kwh more per half hour compared to those relevant times from the previous 10 days, then your baseline for 5pm to 6pm would be adjusted upwards by 0.2kwh per half hour. Therefore it is still keeping your usage curve, but adjusted up or down based on your usage that day.

    If you increased your usage in that 3 hour period you would gain more but, as it is averaged across 6 half hour slots, probably not worth creating extra usage unless it is just time shifting things you would need to do anyway.


    What you've said is clearly the intention, but when you actually plug some real numbers into their formula it doesn't seem to work like that. Because they add then subtract the unadjusted baseline it can be simplified out of the equation meaning it has no impact on the end result. I made a spreadsheet to calculate it and found that the output didn't change when I changed the unadjusted baseline number. 
  • peter3hg
    peter3hg Posts: 372 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    Petriix said:
    peter3hg said:
    Petriix said:
    Ok, I've found details about the 'In Day Adjustment' but, at first glance, it seems to disregard the entirety of the 10 day period supposedly used for the baseline.

    Here's a link to the document

    The bit I'm struggling to get my head around is that the formula as written: 

    In Day Adjustment = ∑j (Unit Meter Point Metered Volume – Unadjusted Baseline Value)/ 6

    where ∑j represents summation over the six Settlement Periods in the “In Day Reference Window”. The In Day Reference Window is defined as the three-hour period ending at one hour ahead of the first Settlement Period in Settlement Day D. BL01 Step 4 – Calculate Baseline Values Demand Flexibility Service | Procurement Rules For each ‘Domestic’ Unit Meter Point (and each Settlement Period within Settlement Day D), Baseline Value is calculated as:

    Baseline Value = Unadjusted Baseline Value + In Day Adjustment 
    ...no matter what number you use as the Unadjusted Baseline Value, the result will always be the same. It adds it, then it takes it away so it's effectively removed from the result. That means the In Day Adjustment becomes the entire baseline. So the baseline is actually just the 6 half hour windows ending 1 hour before the trial on the same day.

    That's clearly not the intention, but I can't see how you would use that formula to get a different result. Can anyone else figure it out?
    The adjustment is calculated against the relevant settlement periods (half hour blocks) from the previous 10 days (4 days at weekend).
    So if between 1pm and 4pm you used an average of 0.2kwh more per half hour compared to those relevant times from the previous 10 days, then your baseline for 5pm to 6pm would be adjusted upwards by 0.2kwh per half hour. Therefore it is still keeping your usage curve, but adjusted up or down based on your usage that day.

    If you increased your usage in that 3 hour period you would gain more but, as it is averaged across 6 half hour slots, probably not worth creating extra usage unless it is just time shifting things you would need to do anyway.


    What you've said is clearly the intention, but when you actually plug some real numbers into their formula it doesn't seem to work like that. Because they add then subtract the unadjusted baseline it can be simplified out of the equation meaning it has no impact on the end result. I made a spreadsheet to calculate it and found that the output didn't change when I changed the unadjusted baseline number. 
    The unadjusted baseline for the calculation of the in day adjustment is not the same unadjusted baseline for the adjusted baseline value calculation.

    Using yesterday, the unadjusted baseline for the in day adjustment calculation slot is the 6 half hour periods between 1 and 4 and the unadjusted baseline for the adjusted baseline calculation is the 2 half hour periods between 5 and 6.
  • Alnat1
    Alnat1 Posts: 3,394 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    Options
    It appears I'm testing their system, guess we'll find out after Octopus have done the sums  :*
    Barnsley, South Yorkshire
    Solar PV 5.25kWp SW facing (14 x 375 Longi) Lux 3.6kw hybrid inverter and 4.8kw Pylontech battery storage installed March 22
    Octopus Agile/Fixed Outgoing and Tracker gas
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Newbie
    First Post Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited 16 November 2022 at 4:09PM
    Options
    It's not the same quantity that you are adding and subtracting though - it doesn't cancel out.

    To explain the formula with some times:

    Baseline Value (4-4.30pm) = Unadjusted baseline (4-4.30pm, 10 day average) + in day adjustment.

    In day adjustment = Average of  actual use (12-3pm, in day) - unadjusted baseline (12-3pm, last 10 day)

    If that makes any sense to people?

    They adjust what you would normally use between 4&4.30 by how much above or below your normal 12-3 usage you were.

    I would suggest you modify your spreadsheet, or don't use a flat consumption curve.
  • Petriix
    Petriix Posts: 2,125 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    Options
    peter3hg said:
    Petriix said:
    peter3hg said:
    Petriix said:
    Ok, I've found details about the 'In Day Adjustment' but, at first glance, it seems to disregard the entirety of the 10 day period supposedly used for the baseline.

    Here's a link to the document

    The bit I'm struggling to get my head around is that the formula as written: 

    In Day Adjustment = ∑j (Unit Meter Point Metered Volume – Unadjusted Baseline Value)/ 6

    where ∑j represents summation over the six Settlement Periods in the “In Day Reference Window”. The In Day Reference Window is defined as the three-hour period ending at one hour ahead of the first Settlement Period in Settlement Day D. BL01 Step 4 – Calculate Baseline Values Demand Flexibility Service | Procurement Rules For each ‘Domestic’ Unit Meter Point (and each Settlement Period within Settlement Day D), Baseline Value is calculated as:

    Baseline Value = Unadjusted Baseline Value + In Day Adjustment 
    ...no matter what number you use as the Unadjusted Baseline Value, the result will always be the same. It adds it, then it takes it away so it's effectively removed from the result. That means the In Day Adjustment becomes the entire baseline. So the baseline is actually just the 6 half hour windows ending 1 hour before the trial on the same day.

    That's clearly not the intention, but I can't see how you would use that formula to get a different result. Can anyone else figure it out?
    The adjustment is calculated against the relevant settlement periods (half hour blocks) from the previous 10 days (4 days at weekend).
    So if between 1pm and 4pm you used an average of 0.2kwh more per half hour compared to those relevant times from the previous 10 days, then your baseline for 5pm to 6pm would be adjusted upwards by 0.2kwh per half hour. Therefore it is still keeping your usage curve, but adjusted up or down based on your usage that day.

    If you increased your usage in that 3 hour period you would gain more but, as it is averaged across 6 half hour slots, probably not worth creating extra usage unless it is just time shifting things you would need to do anyway.


    What you've said is clearly the intention, but when you actually plug some real numbers into their formula it doesn't seem to work like that. Because they add then subtract the unadjusted baseline it can be simplified out of the equation meaning it has no impact on the end result. I made a spreadsheet to calculate it and found that the output didn't change when I changed the unadjusted baseline number. 
    The unadjusted baseline for the calculation of the in day adjustment is not the same unadjusted baseline for the adjusted baseline value calculation.

    Using yesterday, the unadjusted baseline for the in day adjustment calculation slot is the 6 half hour periods between 1 and 4 and the unadjusted baseline for the adjusted baseline calculation is the 2 half hour periods between 5 and 6.
    Ah, that would make more sense.
  • Alnat1
    Alnat1 Posts: 3,394 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    Options
    All gone way beyond me now, I'll just wait and see  :#
    Barnsley, South Yorkshire
    Solar PV 5.25kWp SW facing (14 x 375 Longi) Lux 3.6kw hybrid inverter and 4.8kw Pylontech battery storage installed March 22
    Octopus Agile/Fixed Outgoing and Tracker gas
  • millie
    millie Posts: 1,452 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Options
    Alnat1 said:
    All gone way beyond me now, I'll just wait and see  :#
    Me too cannot even think about trying to get my head around.



  • t0rt0ise
    t0rt0ise Posts: 4,301 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    I just worked mine out and then read the FAQ to see that each half hour is separate, so you can get points for the first half hour even if say, you use more than usual in the second half hour. That might make a difference to my working out but I'm not going to do it again, I'll just wait and see Octopus's result and then work out how they got to their result. If anyone's got a spreadsheet with calculations already, I'd love to see it.
  • badger09
    badger09 Posts: 11,330 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Options
    Alnat1 said:
    All gone way beyond me now, I'll just wait and see  :#
    Me too. My brain hurts just reading the last few posts. 
    I couldn’t ‘game the system’ even if I wanted to😊 
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 344.8K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.6K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 450.5K Spending & Discounts
  • 236.9K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 610.8K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.9K Life & Family
  • 249.7K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards