Deleted

MattMattMattUK

Deleted_User said:

You cannot prove that you will reduce energy consumption until you've actually done it.

Correct, this is made worse by many people saying that they will reduce consumption and not doing do. 

Deleted_User said:

DD Budget sets a payment schedule at the START of the year - before you've used any energy that year.

It is set over the next twelve month period rather than the start of the year, some suppliers evaluate on a three, six or twelve month cycle, most tend to review every six, but take account of seasonal variations. 

Deleted_User said:

The budget payment is based upon an estimate. It is impossible to reliably estimate what someone is going to use without meaningful historical data to guide you.

The budget is based on historical data, it also takes accounts of any changes in usage patterns in previous months rather than just the previous whole year.

Deleted_User said:

Meaningful historical data no longer exists as we're in a climate where all but the wealthiest are being forced to change their energy usage patterns. 

Meaningful data does exist, if someone has halved their usage over summer it is reasonable to conclude that they will reduce their usage over winter as well, although unlikely to halve it in winter. 

Deleted_User said:

If an energy company takes a large sum of money from someone's bank account - a sum that they can't afford - it will mean that other bills go unpaid. The mortgage for example. If the energy company refuse to reduce DD payments (as they HAVE done for many - including me until I cancelled my DD) they will push people into debt. Some  will default on their mortgage and lose their home. 

The issue is that many, probably the vast majority of those who are saying that they want their Direct Debit reduced are doing so without a factual or rational basis. Customers are not working out their usage in kWh and accounting for current prices, nor have they already cut back, but are plucking arbitrary figures out of the air and saying that they will in the future cut back and/or they do not understand their usage and how costs are calculated. People have the choice of paying in full each month, or prepayment if they disagree with the energy supplier's calculation, then they can pay according to their actual usage. The hyperbole of people being unable to pay their mortgages because of budget Direct Debits needs to stop, it is hysteria, not a realistic situation. 

dunstonh

But I don't want an energy company forcing things on me because (as you imply) most people are too incompetent to manage their own affairs. And I use my example to illustrate the situation that many are placed in.

You don't have to.  If you have the data and detail to back up your case then the majority of suppliers will go along with it. 

By the end of winter I was in credit - only about £70. Yet they carried it over into Summer - which made no logical sense, but their policy is to refund anything over £40 at the end of the year. Fair enough.

Only being £70 out indicates pretty good modelling.   And it made perfect sense to carry it over as the cost of energy increased significantly since then.  Most suppliers (but not all) will factor the existing credit into their recommended figure.

By the end of summer I was £400 in credit - and they refunded it!!!!!
Which blows out the water the idea that you pay more in summer to cover winter bills. 

It doesnt blow it out of the water.  Refunding it can be done for logical reasons and illogical reasons.  

Then they INCREASED my DD. 

They would do if the summer credit has been drawn out.

 There estimate was too high based upon historical data. But over and above that - I had fitted solar and woodburner. This meant I'd have no gas usage over winter (over and above summer usage) and no electric or gas in summer. I told them this, but the refused to reduce my payment.

I have three woodburners and still manage to go through 3000 litres of oil a year (it would be a lot more without the burners).  They don't know how much the burner will reduce the use.   For most people, a burner results in a reduction but not completely wiping out the central heating.   So, playing it safe in their estimate makes sense until they see what happens.

In your case, it probably makes more sense to move to variable direct debit    Rather than staying on a method that you don't get much benefit from and probably don't need if your use is actually what you say it is.

So I tried to switch to DD full amount. After a 3 day wait for a reply via Whatsapp they told me it wasn't possible to switch payment method/tariff.

You dont switch tariff.  You switch payment method.    Most suppliers support variable direct debit but not all do.   You should consider switching when that becomes possible on single tariff again.

If the energy company take money from your account that is needed to pay your mortgage how will you pay your mortgage? If the energy company insist on taking that money from your account - even when you tell them the money isn't there to cover it - how do you avoid getting into mortgage arears? 

There is a massive exaggeration in that (and the media).   Mortgage rates are still much lower than the long term average and lower than most years prior to 2008.   Affordability checks on mortgage applications assumed higher rates.  So, they should have plenty of scope.    It may mean some people have to cut back on things but it should be affordable.        The increase in costs in energy are not nice but they should easily be within tolerance for a homeowner with a mortgage providing they are living within their means.   For the real cases of hardship, the benefits system has kicked in with additional payments.

dunstonh

I've told you in detail what ACTUALLY happened. So your belief about what you THINK should happen are of little value to anyone. I'm not the only one reporting this experience.

You have told us your side of the story.  That may not be what actually happened.   It is just your interpretation.  It may be accurate. It may not be as you could be trolling us.

Being £70 ahead at the start of winter shows BAD modelling. The whole point is supposed to  be that you build up credit in summer to cover bigger bills in winter.

No, it is very good modelling.  Last winter was mild.  So, having an excess at the end shows it was working.

As I've explained - I know how much energy I need. I have detailed information. Yes, DD budget is not a good fit for me - but as I said, they wouldn't let me switch.

That makes you unique.   Nobody else knows how much energy they need.   They will have a ballpark but depending on the weather; nobody else knows what they are going to use.

The energy companies have no right to be meddling in peoples finances like this. The tax payer shouldn't have to pick up the tab for the carnage caused.

The taxpayer is not picking up the tab because some people don't know how much they should be paying.

deano2099

ariarnia said:

Ofgem doesn't like it when suppliers do things which could lead to people getting into debt such as giving them a large amount of credit back right before winter when all the info says there going to need that money to pay there energy bills.

Which is weird, given the alternative is suppliers being in debt to their consumers, then the disaster that brings when the company ceases trading.

pochase said:

So your idea is that everybody can just set their direct debit to whatever they think is correct? 

Why not? Or a right to reclaim your account balance whenever you want. If you end up debt, you get an extra bill and get 14 days to pay the excess. 

This is an immediate problem and there should be something in place to allow companies to act immediately. If someone says they're reducing usage, they should be believed. If you provide monthly meter readings, or have a smart meter, the energy companies have this data. They don't need to wait 3, 6, 12 months to review it. Or put a system in place where consumers can say "I want my direct debit reducing as I'm cutting usage" and the company says "okay, we'll cut it by 1/3rd if there's a 1/3rd reduction in usage next month" and then just actually review it. If usage that month is down by a third, charge the lower figure.

People struggling to pay now being told "wait 6 months" is not sufficient. 

And variable DD is a good solution to this but just needs to be offered by everyone and people need to be allowed to switch to it.

deano2099

Ofgem themselves have proposed that a customer's right to have their credit balance refunded on request should be made absolute, so this isn't as ridiculous a concept as some are claiming: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2021/03/cmp2_consultation_final.pdf

pochase

deano2099 said:

Ofgem themselves have proposed that a customer's right to have their credit balance refunded on request should be made absolute, so this isn't as ridiculous a concept as some are claiming: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2021/03/cmp2_consultation_final.pdf

This is a consultation, not a Ofgem regulation.

And it talks about surplus credit being returned, which is not the credit a the begin of winter.

deano2099

pochase said:

deano2099 said:

Ofgem themselves have proposed that a customer's right to have their credit balance refunded on request should be made absolute, so this isn't as ridiculous a concept as some are claiming: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2021/03/cmp2_consultation_final.pdf

This is a consultation, not a Ofgem regulation.

And it talks about surplus credit being returned, which is not the credit a the begin of winter.

Yes, hence why I used the word "proposed". And it does talk about all credit, on request, your second point is wrong. 

pseudodox

Apodemus said:

I know to the unit what my energy use is now. I also know what it will be.. 

I understand that it is possible to know "to the unit" how much energy has been used up to this precise moment.  However, I don't understand how anyone can know how much will be used in the future.  I'm not planning on needing to boil the kettle today, but if someone unexpectedly dropped in for a cuppa, then I would have to...  I guess I could calculate the average likelihood of visitors  and do a risk analysis of the number of cuppas over the next few months, but that takes me from knowing, to estimating.  Very few things in life are certain and I really don't know with any degree of certainty that my estimate of electricity use over the next couple of months is any better than E.Ons.

I know how much I will use over the next 12 months.  No matter what the weather it will be less than I used in the last 12 months and it will be as many kWh of gas and electric as I have worked out that I can actually afford to pay for out of my modest fixed income.  I am allowing myself 1600 kWh electric and 6500 kWh gas MAXIMUM.  The electric I use has been consistent around 1660/1690 over 15 years and I have identified a few potential small savings which are already showing results.  My gas usage has always been around 8000 kWh per annum.  I switched off the c/heating start of April and it will not be going on again until start of December.  And even then it will be switched on and off  manually only on days I feel I need it.  The evening temperature in my house now is around 14C, rising to 17C in daytime.  I am quite comfortable with an extra layer of clothing as I have acclimatised myself to lower temperatures.  I am a darn sight warmer than I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s in a draughty old house with just a coal fire in one room & ice on the bedroom windows.  I have a very efficient gas fire in my sitting room which on the lowest setting last week proved too warm after an hour.

If I have used up all my "allowance" before winter is over then tough.  I will exercise more, go for walks, sit in the local library or go to bed.  I will not use power that I will not be able to pay for no matter how cold or long the winter.  Once I have eaten all the sweeties in the tin there will be no more, so self discipline or denial is needed to ration them.  Since 1 April I have used 930 kWh of my self imposed 6500 kWh gas allowance, so quite a decent credit built up.

I had to choose this year to forgo holidays or dispose of my 20 year old car.  A holiday last 2 weeks and is soon history.  The car will take me as many miles as I can do on the petrol I can afford to buy for 52 weeks of the year.

It is called cutting your coat to suit your cloth.  My Dad taught me that if I hadn't got enough pocket money left over I could not buy that item in the toyshop window.

QrizB

pochase said:

deano2099 said:

Ofgem themselves have proposed that a customer's right to have their credit balance refunded on request should be made absolute, so this isn't as ridiculous a concept as some are claiming: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2021/03/cmp2_consultation_final.pdf

This is a consultation, not a Ofgem regulation.

And is currently closed, awaiting a decision.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/supplier-licensing-review-reducing-credit-balance-mutualisation

ariarnia

pseudodox said:

Apodemus said:

I know to the unit what my energy use is now. I also know what it will be.. 

I understand that it is possible to know "to the unit" how much energy has been used up to this precise moment.  However, I don't understand how anyone can know how much will be used in the future.  I'm not planning on needing to boil the kettle today, but if someone unexpectedly dropped in for a cuppa, then I would have to...  I guess I could calculate the average likelihood of visitors  and do a risk analysis of the number of cuppas over the next few months, but that takes me from knowing, to estimating.  Very few things in life are certain and I really don't know with any degree of certainty that my estimate of electricity use over the next couple of months is any better than E.Ons.

I know how much I will use over the next 12 months.  No matter what the weather it will be less than I used in the last 12 months and it will be as many kWh of gas and electric as I have worked out that I can actually afford to pay for out of my modest fixed income.  I am allowing myself 1600 kWh electric and 6500 kWh gas MAXIMUM.  The electric I use has been consistent around 1660/1690 over 15 years and I have identified a few potential small savings which are already showing results.  My gas usage has always been around 8000 kWh per annum.  I switched off the c/heating start of April and it will not be going on again until start of December.  And even then it will be switched on and off  manually only on days I feel I need it.  The evening temperature in my house now is around 14C, rising to 17C in daytime.  I am quite comfortable with an extra layer of clothing as I have acclimatised myself to lower temperatures.  I am a darn sight warmer than I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s in a draughty old house with just a coal fire in one room & ice on the bedroom windows.  I have a very efficient gas fire in my sitting room which on the lowest setting last week proved too warm after an hour.

If I have used up all my "allowance" before winter is over then tough.  I will exercise more, go for walks, sit in the local library or go to bed.  I will not use power that I will not be able to pay for no matter how cold or long the winter.  Once I have eaten all the sweeties in the tin there will be no more, so self discipline or denial is needed to ration them.  Since 1 April I have used 930 kWh of my self imposed 6500 kWh gas allowance, so quite a decent credit built up.

I had to choose this year to forgo holidays or dispose of my 20 year old car.  A holiday last 2 weeks and is soon history.  The car will take me as many miles as I can do on the petrol I can afford to buy for 52 weeks of the year.

It is called cutting your coat to suit your cloth.  My Dad taught me that if I hadn't got enough pocket money left over I could not buy that item in the toyshop window.

please correct me if i'm remembering your original very first post on the forum wrong but as far as i remember you had responses about variable dd and were able to quickly and easily switch to a supplier that offered it (one call if i remember right)

so a good example of what people are saying on this thread that there are differnt payment methods available to suit differnt people and that its not difficult to switch to someone who offers the payment method you want.