Deleted

Jyana

Deleted_User said:

Jyana said:

I've cut my usage, and my direct debit was reduced by my supplier due to that. I'm paying £19 at present rather then £21.50 compared to last winter.

I've never had large credit or debit on my account, and my direct debits have always been more or less exactly what they need to be. Then again, I have given my supplier a meter reading at least monthly for the last 15 years or more, and never missed a prompt before then if I got a note through the letterbox from a meter reader who called to the house. So my supplier knows my usage, and what I need to pay. 

That's great. But you don't have a problem and therefore don't need Martin's help. Read through the boards and you'll find many people are being told they must pay huge monthly payments. This happened to me - I asked for them to be reduced and I was told 'no'. I eventually got this sorted out through the formal complaints system. But some people are failing to take it further. They are accepting that they must pay these huge sums. 

I would have thought the best way to help these people is to allow them to pay for energy actually used WITHOUT paying a higher tariff. The DD system breaks in circumstances like this - for many people it's not fit for purpose. 

No, the point of my comment was that the best way to help the people who report these problems after they post them on the forums, tends to be getting them to understand the importance of reading their meters. A huge number of people just don't do that, or look at their bills fully in many cases. Sometimes for many, many years at a time.

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

dunstonh said:

Read through the posts on these boards Duntosh - people are being told they can't have their credit balances refunded and they can't have their monthly payment reduced.

Indeed they are but most of those same posts are by people who haven't worked out their annual use and are just plain guessing.  Many don't understand the need to build summer credit or the amount of summer credit they need.     The countless threads where people are trying to empty their summer credit or only leave one or two months worth suggest the larger problem is the inability of many to understand the amount of energy they use and how much it varies over the year and how much it will cost them 

Think about it - it's utterly insane. People are left powerless to help themselves. If they can't afford energy then their only course of action is to stop using energy - yet energy companies are taking huge sums of money from their bank accounts regardless - even though people have no intention of using the energy that they're being forced to pay for.

Or they can move to variable direct debit and never require any annualisation estimates ever again.

This is surly the kind of thing that Martin Lewis needs to intervene over.

Why?   Most providers cater for different methods.   

The crisis isn't the making of the consumers. People need to be allowed to pay for the energy they actually use without being forced onto a higher tariff.

And they can do that already.    

I hear you. They aren't as smart as you. It wouldn't happen to you.  But not being as smart as Duntosh isn't a crime that should be punishable by unnecessary financial crisis. 

Which is why they need Martin to take care of this - assuming his claims that he wants to help people in dire straights are sincere. Most people are capable of reducing energy usage without an article to guide them - what would really help is Martin intervening to make sure people have an easy route to switching to pay for what they use - without paying higher tariffs. All he has to do is read through the boards and he'll find lots of people reporting this problem. 

It would have been a massive help to me as I had to jump through hoops and cancel my direct debit to get an acceptable response. 

it's not about being 'smart' its about understanding that if you dont know how much you use then your guess for how much you are going to use (so how much you need to pay each month or keep in reserve) isn't likely to be very accurate. 

unless you have some reasonable basis for the amount you want to pay then the most reliable figures are based on your previous use. 

and Duntosh has said in that post. there is an 'easy' way for people to pay only for what they use without paying a higher tarrif. i explained on your other thread when you were thinking about cancelling your dd. its called a variable direct debit. where you get the dd 'discount' and they still take the money by direct debit but its based on a bill being generated each month so you only pay for what you used that month.

it still has the same risks as paying by cash or card each month that you need to make sure you can cover your bills. so if someone is struggling to know how much they use each month to argue for a reduction in dd then there probably also going to struggle to know how much there bill is going to be each month.

given winter bills can easily be double to 4 times higher than summer someone who is struggling to afford there dd is at much higher risk of getting into a mess with there money than if they take a few meter readings and agree a sensible monthly dd level. if someone wanted to do that then really they would be best waiting for summer so they can use the lower bills to put any 'extra' cash they can spare into a bank account to provide a cushion against the next winter bills. 

[Deleted User]

Hmmmm - another thread of unstructured ranting about energy companies from someone who's got themselves into a tizz and isn't preapred to listen to anyone else. Quite entertaining and great for popcorn sales, though.

But I digress, please carry on everyone.....

Coffeekup

Deleted_User said:

dunstonh said:

When people are on DD tariffs the energy companies work out how much they think you should pay each month. Yes, you can get a refund if you've overpaid but often that's not until the end of the year - certainly not on demand.

Many suppliers will alter the payment if you provide them with a logical argument to change it.  

I advised EDF last month I had a new boiler installed and I was told it used less gas and they reduced my DD by 30% from £50 to £35 no problem.  I was £400 in credit.  I'm sure is does use less gas but with the price rises of late it's difficult to calculate it yet.

The price rise shouldnt stop you working that out as cost is not how you measure use.

Read through the posts on these boards Duntosh - people are being told they can't have their credit balances refunded and they can't have their monthly payment reduced.

Think about it - it's utterly insane. People are left powerless to help themselves. If they can't afford energy then their only course of action is to stop using energy - yet energy companies are taking huge sums of money from their bank accounts regardless - even though people have no intention of using the energy that they're being forced to pay for.
Regular monthly meter readings a week before your bill is issued will get this reduced. If you don't take ownership it'll be longer for that person to be paying more in DD.

This is surly the kind of thing that Martin Lewis needs to intervene over.
No it's not

The crisis isn't the making of the consumers. People need to be allowed to pay for the energy they actually use without being forced onto a higher tariff.
No one is forced into a higher tariffs

That's because they either have a balance they need to pay for going into the winter months where everyone uses more energy, and or they haven't built up enough credit during the summer months to use over the next 4 months. If the energy companies have got it wrong you will get the credit back or be able to reduce the DD at a later date, that being said regular monthly meter readings need to be done for this to happen.

elsien

You can’t use the threads on here to quantify the number of people who may or may not be having problems with their direct debits.

Primarily because people only come here when they’ve got a problem. They are a self-selecting sample and not necessarily representative of the population as a whole. There are a large number of people who don’t have a problem and are quite happy with their direct debits, or getting them reduced without any issue, they just tend not to turn up on here commenting about it.

Coffeekup

Jyana said:

I've cut my usage, and my direct debit was reduced by my supplier due to that. I'm paying £19 at present rather then £21.50 compared to last winter.

I've never had large credit or debit on my account, and my direct debits have always been more or less exactly what they need to be. Then again, I have given my supplier a meter reading at least monthly for the last 15 years or more, and never missed a prompt before then if I got a note through the letterbox from a meter reader who called to the house. So my supplier knows my usage, and what I need to pay. 

I have done and still do exactly the same as you, meter read every month within a few days of the 1st of the month since 2007.
I took ownership years ago when energy prices were stable and pretty much the same amongst other competitors, staying with one energy company was "the norm". My DD's back then were being bounced around £40 to £80 to £50 to £120 to £60 I had enough of it,  I was either £550 in credit or £600 in debit. So only way to control it was get a grab the bill by the horns.

Looking back it's saved me money over the year's, and taught me alot about my usage. My usage has gone down in the last 15 year's from 3,900 kWh's of electricity to 1,100 kWh this year and a gas decrease from 25,000 to 3,100 kWh's. It's not all being tight with usage, having loft insulation saved around a 1/3 of my gas usage.

NeverendingDMP

Martin Lewis and Greg? From octopus discussed this on  his show tonight. Forgive me.if I interpreted it wrong but his example was NHS employee who thought d debit was too high based on expected use. This prompted a discussion between the two of them that I took as meaning octopus are that bloody confused by the changes and govt that there algorithm is slightly wrong/ not perfect and actually the direct debit calculator is just a long shot/best guess as they are trying there best - also anyone who thinks they have enough credit needs to go to an independent calculator and figure out if it's gonna cut the mustard this winter due to price rises and use this to challenge their provider.  I've managed to take.back my credit from octopus but only cos I need to kick the can down the line till next year.

Coffeekup

Deleted_User said:

-snip-

I would have thought the best way to help these people is to allow them to pay for energy actually used WITHOUT paying a higher tariff. The DD system breaks in circumstances like this - for many people it's not fit for purpose. 

So pay for what you use and have a variable DD.

[Deleted User]

The DD budget model (that energy companies want people on) is not fit for purpose in the current climate when they estimate energy usage based upon historical data. 

Data collectors have 70 year’s worth of historical usage data for some properties. When switching, many people lie about their annual consumption just to get a lower DD. Suppliers do not have a crystal ball so they are not to know in advance if a consumer decides to fit PV solar; a heat pump or change his/her consumption pattern.

That said, I have had smart meters for over 31/2 years. My EAC for electricity and AQ for gas are adjusted by my supplier each month based on my smart readings, and their estimates are pretty well in kilter with what I might calculate. 

Also, by ensuring that I have enough credit in my account to cover the following month’s bill in full, my supplier seems happy to let me adjust the monthly DD payment as I wish. During some of the summer months my DD has been set at £1/month with solar income paying for the bill with credit in hand.

MattMattMattUK

Deleted_User said:

[Deleted User] said:

The DD budget model (that energy companies want people on) is not fit for purpose in the current climate when they estimate energy usage based upon historical data. 

Data collectors have 70 year’s worth of historical usage data for some properties. When switching, many people lie about their annual consumption just to get a lower DD. Suppliers do not have a crystal ball so they are not to know in advance if a consumer decides to fit PV solar; a heat pump or change his/her consumption pattern.

That said, I have had smart meters for over 31/2 years. My EAC for electricity and AQ for gas are adjusted by my supplier each month based on my smart readings, and their estimates are pretty well in kilter with what I might calculate. 

Also, by ensuring that I have enough credit in my account to cover the following month’s bill in full, my supplier seems happy to let me adjust the monthly DD payment as I wish. During some of the summer months my DD has been set at £1/month with solar income paying for the bill with credit in hand.

You completely miss the point.

Unfortunately it seems that it is you that is completely missing the point, there seems to be a fairly strong consensus to that effect. 

Deleted_User said:

Energy used to be affordable. People therefore used it freely. 

People used it wastefully. 

Deleted_User said:

Energy prices have gone through the roof and people can no longer afford to use as much. Most are cutting usage. Many will DRASTICALLY reduce usage.

Some are cutting usage, many are not, other think that they are cutting their usage, but are actually doing things which are either minimal, or ineffective. Some, likely a small amount will make significant changes, but these are not the majority, which is why people are complaining about their bills doubling, because they are carrying on as before, but with higher unit costs.

Deleted_User said:

Yet energy companies are calculating DD payments based upon historical data.

They are taking into account historical usage as that is the best indicator they have of future usage. Some people will cut back, others are saying that they are cutting back but are not actually doing so, in an attempt to get a lower Direct Debit, often under the misapprehension that if they get the energy supplier to agree £200 per month that is all that they have to pay, not realising that goes into the pot for when it is tallied against their actual usage.  If one demonstrates a significant cut in energy usage over several months then the energy supplier will agree to a reduction in monthly Direct Debit, or they offer the option of paying the whole bill monthly. The reason why they require action first is that many people have failed to cut their usage so far in summer and a very warm autumn and the people are claiming that they will cut usage below current levels even once they need the heating on and water heating costs increase, which is just not believable. 

Deleted_User said:

This will push people into debt. Many people are finding that energy companies are refusing to reduce DD payments to reflect reduced usage. They want evidence of reduced usage, but by the time that's available it's too late - they've already taken huge sums from peoples accounts and pushed people into debt. It's no consolation to hear that any overpayment will be refunded further down the line - by that time many will have defaulted on mortgages and been pushed into expensive debt. 

The energy companies are willing to cut Direct Debit payments based on actual reduced usage, what they are not willing to do us cut Direct Debit payments based on someone saying that they plan to/might/want to cut usage in the future. They are not pushing people into debt, people not managing their finances is pushing people into debt. If the people want to pay for what they use then they can move to monthly pay whole bill/variable Direct Debit, or prepayment (which is actually cheaper at the moment). They are very unlikely to default on their mortgages due to the headroom required when granting mortgages, even with current inflation and increase for people who are not on fixed rates we are still below the headroom that was built into the stress test. 

Deleted_User said:

The point is - the DD Budget model is not fit for purpose in the current climate. 

The point is... it is fit for purpose, it works for the vast majority, for those that it does not then they have perfectly viable alternatives. 

Deleted_User said:
Because as you say, there is no way of energy companies knowing how much energy people will use.

For most of these customers they do not have a great grasp of how much energy they are using, they most often, as evidenced on here, still think in terms of "£100 of energy", not kWh cost.

Deleted_User said:
If they won't trust the customer's estimate

I would not trust the majority of customer's estimates, because as a rule from what we see on here they seem to significantly understate consumption. 

Deleted_User said:
they will come up with their own and if they are wrong they could destroy someone's life by unnecessarily forcing them into expensive debt. 

This is hysterical hyperbole, they are not going to destroy someone's life.