Deleted

pochase

So what are you going to do about all those who just "believe" they are using less energy now, or just think the direct debit is to expensive.

In a few month they will be in debt, and not just by having paid to much for a direct debit, where they will get the money back, they will have used the energy and will have to pay for it without being able to do so.

Of the many threads on this forum where people say the direct debit is to high, a good percentage does not give a information why that is the case. They just have the feeling it is to expensive, or when they deliver the information the energy supplier is not that far off.

There are two possibilities that can be used, payment on receipt for the bill, more expensive in most cases, or by variable direct debit, which most suppliers offer. In both cases it can be very risky to switch to it at this time of the year as people will not have been able to budget for the expensive high use months, getting them into even more problems.

The other possibility is prepaid. It is by far not any longer much more expensive, the unit rates are mostly on the same level as direct debit, sometimes even cheaper and the standing charge are about 5p per day for electricity and 10p for gas more expensive.

pochase

So your idea is that everybody can just set their direct debit to whatever they think is correct? 

Does that include all those who don't even have an idea how much energy they use and just believe the direct debit is to high?

That are not the people who will monitor their energy use and budget for a debt at the end of the billing cycle. They are the ones that will end up with a real debt and they might end up losing their homes, because there is a real debt, not just a temporary overpayment.

Other people here have already said that if you can give arguments why your energy use is lower than last year suppliers are listening, but that seems not be enough for you.

QrizB

pochase said:

So what are you going to do about all those who just "believe" they are using less energy now, or just think the direct debit is to expensive.

Sorry to fork the thread, but wasn't there a campaign a couple of months back where people were going to pay their energy suppliers what they thought was a fair price for their energy, rather than the price the energy companies were asking?

What happened to that, does anyone know? It's all gone rather quiet ...

GingerTim

QrizB said:

pochase said:

So what are you going to do about all those who just "believe" they are using less energy now, or just think the direct debit is to expensive.

Sorry to fork the thread, but wasn't there a campaign a couple of months back where people were going to pay their energy suppliers what they thought was a fair price for their energy, rather than the price the energy companies were asking?

What happened to that, does anyone know? It's all gone rather quiet ...

Apparently now delayed to 1 December, according to their website...

dunstonh

No. My idea is that Martin Lewis publishes detailed info about what rights and options people have.

Martin Lewis has never published anything in detail.  He gets 30 second slots on TV and can only skim through basics.    Back in the day when he owned this site and had input to articles and posted on this board, he said that the articles had to be short and simple and that going into detail would be more damaging than good.

The current policy isn't fit for purpose. It's allowing energy companies to legally take huge sums of money that people can't afford - without a shred of evidence that the person is going to use that much energy. For many on the bread line that are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget will be pushed into debt unnecessarily.

Except it is not.
The current situation is that suppliers go by the intial information they are given by the consumer when they move to that supplier.   The supplier then starts building a history of what they use.       Very often, what they actually use and what they told the supplier are two different things.

If you choose to pay your bill by averaging an estimate of your annual use then a) you accept it is an estimate and b) you use the best data available.    What you used last year is a very good starting point.   That does have flaws.  As you say, someone may have taken action to reduce their use.   However, last winter was mild.  So, heating bills were lower.  What if this winter is a long cold one?   Using last years figures would understate in that scenario.   

Suppliers do listen to people whose circumstances have changed.  Some suppliers will allow changing the amount paid within a margin without talking to them.  Others require you to talk it through with them to explain why it should be lower.  e.g. solar panels now installed or replacement devices using lower energy or proactive measures to reduce use.    However, they would expect to see some data with that.    Such as usage data since the changes compared to the same months the previous years.  

For many on the bread line that are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget will be pushed into debt unnecessarily.

If they are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget then they should know what their energy use is and would not have a problem.   The reality is, that the majority of people make no effort to understand their energy use because they haven't had to as its been so cheap for decades.    The energy use by some people who claim to have little money can often be very high.   They should be encouraged to look at their use.   

The many threads on this site where people initially moan about the cost, sometimes result in the poster looking at their use in more detail and then going on to find ways to reduce it.  We have seen people half their daily use because they engaged in the threads and put the effort it.   Others just prefer to whinge and remain ignorant.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Have to say I've not been impressed with Octopus and their communication, they sent an email on the 26th of Sep to say:

We'll collect your monthly Direct Debit payment of £111.71 on 3rd October ..... This is £67.00 less per property than usual, to pass on the discount of the Energy Bill Support Scheme. From October, you'll receive a monthly discount on your account of £66 

Previously my DD was £113 so the above is very poorly worded, they should have said:

We've reviewed your DD and increased it to £177.71, will take a DD of £111.71 and will credit the £67 from the government to your account to make up the difference. 

Energy went from .28p to .35 which is a 25% increase but they've effectively increased the DD by over 55%. 

Granted we aren't a usual household but our energy cost went from £110 in Sep to £90 in Oct meaning they took £111.71 to cover £34. 

Octopus also didn't send any emails at all about the price changes in Oct and what we'd be paying per unit.

Earlier in the year I asked them on the phone (in passing, I didn't call specifically for this) if the unit rate was different if you paid by variable DD, the CS rep said they didn't know but would find out and someone would get back to me, needless to say they didn't... (I now know the answer from here). 

You can request a change to the DD although I assume they check that and say yes or no, I'm happy for the credit to build up to cover whatever is going to happen in April but we're lucky that a few hundred sitting in their pocket for a rainy day doesn't really affect us. 

Apodemus

ariarnia said:

franticly searches for an xkcd comic suitable for the occasion. gets distracted by xkcd comics. 

Oh no!  Never having heard of xkcd comics, I googled the term.  Several hours later... this thread has gone to 5 pages and I'll never catch up!

EssexHebridean

giraffe69 said:

Perhaps it is how you go about it and whether your consumption merits a reduction. My supplier put my dd up by more than my usage justified imo but was willing to compromise when asked.

Completely - Martin has repeatedly made clear the obligation suppliers have to charge people a "reasonable" Direct Debit, and has also gone through the steps you should take to renegotiate the DD if you can show that it is not reasonable. (For anyone wanting more on this there is an episode of the BBC "Martin Lewis Podcast" that covers it extremely clearly). The key it seems is to do your research, gather your facts, and then be polite when making the request. The problem is of course that someone "planning on cutting down on use" cannot provide proof that their DD based on their habitual use to date is unreasonable until such time as they have "put their money where their mouth is" and actually begun to make the reductions. I can't say I can really blame the energy companies for not being willing to risk people running into debt on the basis of a "Yeah, we're cutting down, honest Guv' wink wink" conversation! 

ariarnia

Apodemus said:

ariarnia said:

franticly searches for an xkcd comic suitable for the occasion. gets distracted by xkcd comics. 

Oh no!  Never having heard of xkcd comics, I googled the term.  Several hours later... this thread has gone to 5 pages and I'll never catch up!

he also has a book (or two) which make excellent christmas gifts (especially if you give them to someone you live with so you can 'borrow' them back now and then )

Apodemus

Deleted_User said:

dunstonh said:

No. My idea is that Martin Lewis publishes detailed info about what rights and options people have.

Martin Lewis has never published anything in detail.  He gets 30 second slots on TV and can only skim through basics.    Back in the day when he owned this site and had input to articles and posted on this board, he said that the articles had to be short and simple and that going into detail would be more damaging than good.

The current policy isn't fit for purpose. It's allowing energy companies to legally take huge sums of money that people can't afford - without a shred of evidence that the person is going to use that much energy. For many on the bread line that are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget will be pushed into debt unnecessarily.

Except it is not.
The current situation is that suppliers go by the intial information they are given by the consumer when they move to that supplier.   The supplier then starts building a history of what they use.       Very often, what they actually use and what they told the supplier are two different things.

If you choose to pay your bill by averaging an estimate of your annual use then a) you accept it is an estimate and b) you use the best data available.    What you used last year is a very good starting point.   That does have flaws.  As you say, someone may have taken action to reduce their use.   However, last winter was mild.  So, heating bills were lower.  What if this winter is a long cold one?   Using last years figures would understate in that scenario.   

Suppliers do listen to people whose circumstances have changed.  Some suppliers will allow changing the amount paid within a margin without talking to them.  Others require you to talk it through with them to explain why it should be lower.  e.g. solar panels now installed or replacement devices using lower energy or proactive measures to reduce use.    However, they would expect to see some data with that.    Such as usage data since the changes compared to the same months the previous years.  

For many on the bread line that are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget will be pushed into debt unnecessarily.

If they are doing a wonderful job of managing their own budget then they should know what their energy use is and would not have a problem.   The reality is, that the majority of people make no effort to understand their energy use because they haven't had to as its been so cheap for decades.    The energy use by some people who claim to have little money can often be very high.   They should be encouraged to look at their use.   

The many threads on this site where people initially moan about the cost, sometimes result in the poster looking at their use in more detail and then going on to find ways to reduce it.  We have seen people half their daily use because they engaged in the threads and put the effort it.   Others just prefer to whinge and remain ignorant.

I know to the unit what my energy use is now. I also know what it will be.. 

I understand that it is possible to know "to the unit" how much energy has been used up to this precise moment.  However, I don't understand how anyone can know how much will be used in the future.  I'm not planning on needing to boil the kettle today, but if someone unexpectedly dropped in for a cuppa, then I would have to...  I guess I could calculate the average likelihood of visitors  and do a risk analysis of the number of cuppas over the next few months, but that takes me from knowing, to estimating.  Very few things in life are certain and I really don't know with any degree of certainty that my estimate of electricity use over the next couple of months is any better than E.Ons.