Private Parking charge challenge

KeithP

Sledger said:

Day 57 and No NTK . Is it worth replying to them now stating. "As Keeper I no longer have any liability as a NTK has not been sent withing the required 56 Day time limit. Accordingly, please close this case forthwith with confirmation to avoid wasting any more of my and involving POPLA ;

I'd give them another week in case they start bleating about postal strikes etc.

Coupon-mad

Nope, just bung in a POPLA appeal with the lack of NTK and 'no keeper liability' as point number 1.

There is already a pre-written template for that and the other usual POPLA points, in post 3 of the NEWBIES thread.

Sledger

Thanks  Keth P but they can't blame the postal strike for them failing to put it through the letter box 

Thank C-M     No e mail response as yet from UKPC with this POPLA code ( UKPC response sent 26 Nov)

 I'll give he heads up here when / IF I receive the POPLA code 

I assume this is the template response I need  in italics below to which you refer as point number 1.

Just looked on the POPLA site and lots more reading and from their site I need  to submit

• Your 10-digit verification number                      
• Your parking charge notice number
• Your details (incl. vehicle registration number)
• Information about your grounds for appeal           When it arrives, I will only send as below in italics 
• Any evidence which may support your appeal

Notice to Driver was given on 9 -10-2022

A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served  - no Keeper Liability can apply.

This operator UKPC has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

*Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
6(1) 'The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor) - (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further 'If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.'

The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper's address within the 'relevant period' which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given . As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.

Fruitcake

I wouldn't recommend a single point appeal. It is not unheard of for a PPC to produce a copy of a NTK dated to comply with PoFA deadlines, even if the motorist never received it. Unfortunately, the BPA, PoPLA, and even some judges will accept such a copy of proof that a NTK was sent, even though they never provide proof of posting.

I suggest you use that as your point 1 and add all the standard PoPLA appeal points linked from the third post of the NEWBIES.

Personally, I would make point 1 a breach of the EA 2010 even though it will be rejected, because it can them be used to show a judge how unreasonable the PPC was behaving because a BB is not the only indicator of a disability.

Coupon-mad

I advised you to use the 'usual' POPLA points (plural) as seen in post 3 of the NEWBIES thread.

I said this:

There is already a pre-written template for that and the other usual POPLA points, in post 3 of the NEWBIES thread.

There was no need to look at the POPLA website at all because the 3rd post of the NEWBIES thread already tells you that you will be simply submitting a PDF appeal under 'other'.

Sledger

Coupon-mad said:

 Nope just bung in a POPLA appeal with the lack of NTK and 'no keeper liability' as point number 1. 

There is already a pre-written template for that  ??? POINT NUMBER 1 ??is  and the other usual POPLA points, in post 3 of the NEWBIES thread.

I am slightly at a loss here as was of the understanding that the" No day  56 NTK" was sufficient to win and used that draft  template  on my earlier post today   as Point Number 1 :   https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71383972#Comment_71383972"Signage"        (some dont apply as was a disabled Bay and costs are clearly marked and adequately located)
3). The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
4). Landowner Authority
5). Do you have a template for Disabled Parking and discrimination  or shall I just copy and paste my challenge to UKPC
 
Can you please clarify if I have a Golden Ticket (GT) as there is no mention of POFA 2012 on the UKPC window sticker . It has a section at the end "Part 4 data Protection" telling me to visit their website for full privacy policy.and gives a  Tel no or Q&A via e mail link.

There maybe another anomaly for a challenge as the Windscreen sticker states  "Time first seen 16.09   9-10-22 "which is also the same time stated for "The Issue time" leaving no time to find and read the T&C , However when I went on line on day 25 to challenge UKPC subsequent pictures appeared showed an arrival time some 15 minutes earlier 

Coupon-mad

5). Do you have a template for Disabled Parking and discrimination  or shall I just copy and paste my challenge to UKPC

Don't bother with that, and stop thinking about adding words that read as though you will imply who was driving.  That's why to use templates, because your case is won due to the lack of NTK.

If you were driving you must not say so.  This is UKPC's bad for not serving any NTK.

There is already a pre-written template for that  ??? POINT NUMBER 1 ??

Yes one of the templates is exactly that.  It is right there in post 3 of the NEWBIES thread so take a more measured look at the links there.

Sledger

Thanks C-M but am really appreciate your input but am struggling here reading and finding all these links and templates due to my poor computer skills and tired eyes and  feel like just giving up and paying as thought it would simply be  "THE END" after not getting the 56 day NTK as you implied above so why add all the other stuff. which you and Fruitcake have also stated ??? .
                                ";That's why to use templates, because your case is won due to the lack of NTK."


I will have another go and still unclear on these templates and assume it to be the templates as POINTS I have listed below in order of priority where they should admit defeat on Point 1 and stop reading the rest . I have been going dizzy looking at all those links for a similar situation as mine but to no avail .  I lack the zeal of Mike Hammer mission but good on him. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73797736#Comment_73797736"and stop thinking about adding words that read as though you will imply who was driving" .  The only admission I have made is all this is driving me round the bend. If I have made an error please highlight it as to where. thanks 

. 
Point 1 No Keeper Liability (windscreen ticket, no follow on NtK
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287643&postcount=2345

Point 2  Landowner Authority
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343

Point 3 The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287626&postcount=2342

Point 4 Signage   ( edited out portions which do not relate to disabled ticket) 
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341

Fruitcake said:

I wouldn't recommend a single point appeal.?????  It is not unheard of for a PPC to produce a copy of a NTK dated to comply with PoFA deadlines,  even if the motorist never received it. Unfortunately, the BPA, PoPLA, and even some judges will accept such a copy of proof that a NTK was sent, even though they never provide proof of posting. Surely this is falsifying information and if it was not received in the post  they should be made to produce dates they applied to DVLA   and the date DVLA responded then prosecuted if it's been fabricated

I suggest you use that as your point 1 and add all the standard PoPLA appeal points linked from the third post of the NEWBIES.

Personally, I would make point 1 a breach of the EA 2010   even though it will be rejected, because it can them be used to show a judge how unreasonable the PPC was behaving because a BB is not the only indicator of a disability.

Coupon-mad

You've found them, that's fine.  Just swap 2 and 3 around so the order reads more fluently and stick them all in a Word doc that you then save as a PDF to upload to POPLA under 'other'.

Obviously you put a few words in the boxes and your POPLA Code, VRM and name/address.  Leave phone number as eleven zeros.

Sledger

C-M  I had been keeping my fingers crossed for weeks the NTK 56 day deadline and hoped this would end this story  without the need of  going to the next POPLA chapter  

As this NTK has still not arrived what's the harm as Keith P suggested earlier (5 Dec)  give it another week and then contact  UKPC with the following as they should surely realise I  no longer have liability  and close the case.  I then don't have to wait for the POPLA code  and can focus on better things like Christmas. I will also add a bit to cover Fruitcakes point on possible dishonesty in fabricating it was sent.

They no longer have any claim against the keeper so how could this work against me or jeopardise anything ?   

To UKPC  (To be sent next Monday day 63) 
As the Keeper  you should fully understand  that I no longer have any liability as a NTK has not been sent within the required 56 Day time limit. Accordingly, please close this case forthwith with confirmation to avoid wasting any more of my time and involving POPLA.

If for some unlikely reason the NTK has been lost in the post, please submit evidence copies of the date UKPC contacted DVLA  for the keepers details and the date DVLA  sent them back  to UKPC.